Chieftain Forced Landing
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Chieftain Forced Landing
Was I dreaming or did a Chieftain from a well known airline have a forced landing near Canberra last night?
Am I missing something here?
Why the silence?
Am I missing something here?
Why the silence?
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I think you'll find that the aircraft you are referring to is no longer part of the 'well known airline' of which you also refer to. Has not been on their AOC for quite some time now. I also believe that it was a pre-cautionary landing rather than a forced landing. The reasons for this pre-cautionary landing remain unknown to me.
Last edited by Wee_Willy; 22nd May 2009 at 22:42.
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pre-cautionary landing rather than a forced landing.
A landing with fixed reserves left in the tanks deemed a normal or a precautionary landing? Is the landing technique and threshold speeds used, any different between a "precautionary" landing and a normal landing? Do airliners such as the 747 etc ever do precautionary landings? What is the difference between a "precautionary" search and a normal search? Is there any special skill needed by the pilot to use automatic brakes? Do the brakes get hotter with autobrakes?
Is a "conventional" undercarriage aircraft in 2009, a tricycle or tail-wheel aircraft? Why do airline pilots call V1 and V2 but use the actual word "Rotate" for VR?
Why do flying school instructors teach students on Cessna 172's to select carb heat to off before landing when the Cessna manufacturer's handbook states the carb heat should be left on until the after landing drills?
What is the angle of bank required to maintain a Rate Four turn at 100 knots TAS?
Why are students taught to take the weight off the nosewheel during the take off run on a hard dry surface? It is not done in airliners so why on Cessna's and Warriors? If idle reverse thrust after touch-down is used by the pilot of a 737 for noise abatement restrictions, does the N1 stay at flight idle or ground idle?
If a Cessna 172 is flying an ILS or PAPI or VASIS approach to landing, is the IAS controlled by the elevator or the throttle? - keeping in mind most flying schools teach rate of descent controlled by throttle and speed controlled by elevators which is the reverse of airline technique.
During a high speed rejected take off because of an engine fire warning in a multi-engine jet is it safe to use reverse thrust on the engine with the fire?
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OK, I'll bite -on a couple of 'em anyways...
A precautionary landing (given that it's not the point of intended landing and usually executed to prevent something worse happening) is usually taught using a full short-field technique, so yes.
Graphs of auto-brake vs manual brake temps (NB not on aircraft) that I have seen indicate that the brakes operate cooler, with the peak and low points of the graph during the braking cycle consistently -and considereably- closer to the mean-line for the autobrakes -so no.
Just a guess... but would that be because the term "rotate" is a command rather than a suggestion or observation of "we are passing the speed calculated to be Vr"?
A recent thread here may contain at least a part of the answer.
Somebody else can play now...
Originally Posted by Tee Emm
... any different between a "precautionary" landing and a normal landing?
Originally Posted by Tee Emm
Do the brakes get hotter with autobrakes?
Originally Posted by Tee Emm
...but use the actual word "Rotate" for VR?
Originally Posted by Tee Emm
... taught to take the weight off the nosewheel during the take off run on a hard dry surface?
Somebody else can play now...
Was I dreaming or did a Chieftain from a well known airline have a forced landing near Canberra last night?
DF.
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I have often wondered if:
A landing with fixed reserves left in the tanks deemed a normal or a precautionary landing? Is the landing technique and threshold speeds used, any different between a "precautionary" landing and a normal landing? Do airliners such as the 747 etc ever do precautionary landings? What is the difference between a "precautionary" search and a normal search? Is there any special skill needed by the pilot to use automatic brakes? Do the brakes get hotter with autobrakes?
Is a "conventional" undercarriage aircraft in 2009, a tricycle or tail-wheel aircraft? Why do airline pilots call V1 and V2 but use the actual word "Rotate" for VR?
Why do flying school instructors teach students on Cessna 172's to select carb heat to off before landing when the Cessna manufacturer's handbook states the carb heat should be left on until the after landing drills?
What is the angle of bank required to maintain a Rate Four turn at 100 knots TAS?
Why are students taught to take the weight off the nosewheel during the take off run on a hard dry surface? It is not done in airliners so why on Cessna's and Warriors? If idle reverse thrust after touch-down is used by the pilot of a 737 for noise abatement restrictions, does the N1 stay at flight idle or ground idle?
If a Cessna 172 is flying an ILS or PAPI or VASIS approach to landing, is the IAS controlled by the elevator or the throttle? - keeping in mind most flying schools teach rate of descent controlled by throttle and speed controlled by elevators which is the reverse of airline technique.
During a high speed rejected take off because of an engine fire warning in a multi-engine jet is it safe to use reverse thrust on the engine with the fire?
A landing with fixed reserves left in the tanks deemed a normal or a precautionary landing? Is the landing technique and threshold speeds used, any different between a "precautionary" landing and a normal landing? Do airliners such as the 747 etc ever do precautionary landings? What is the difference between a "precautionary" search and a normal search? Is there any special skill needed by the pilot to use automatic brakes? Do the brakes get hotter with autobrakes?
Is a "conventional" undercarriage aircraft in 2009, a tricycle or tail-wheel aircraft? Why do airline pilots call V1 and V2 but use the actual word "Rotate" for VR?
Why do flying school instructors teach students on Cessna 172's to select carb heat to off before landing when the Cessna manufacturer's handbook states the carb heat should be left on until the after landing drills?
What is the angle of bank required to maintain a Rate Four turn at 100 knots TAS?
Why are students taught to take the weight off the nosewheel during the take off run on a hard dry surface? It is not done in airliners so why on Cessna's and Warriors? If idle reverse thrust after touch-down is used by the pilot of a 737 for noise abatement restrictions, does the N1 stay at flight idle or ground idle?
If a Cessna 172 is flying an ILS or PAPI or VASIS approach to landing, is the IAS controlled by the elevator or the throttle? - keeping in mind most flying schools teach rate of descent controlled by throttle and speed controlled by elevators which is the reverse of airline technique.
During a high speed rejected take off because of an engine fire warning in a multi-engine jet is it safe to use reverse thrust on the engine with the fire?
The good old NDB is probably no more dangerous than the GPS NPA if flown correctly
Dr
Tee Emm, I will bite on the last one. It may not be SAFE to use reverse thrust on an engine which is on fire, but when you say 'at high speed' I assume you mean very close to V1. I defy anyone not already expecting the event to hear the fire warning bell, see the light, identify the engine and have the where-with-all to select reverse on the good side while merely pulling the burning side back to ground idle. After all these years and heaps of sim time (giving and receiving) I still can't do it unless I am expecting it. Which is not the aim of the game. The aim, surely in simulation, is to spring this type of exercise as a surprise to illustrate what is likely to happen in real life. Well, at 80 or maybe 100 knots, and if half expecting it, I can methodically analyse the situation and not pull reverse on the burning side and still get it stopped nicely and impress the F/O with my superior handling. But at V1 minus 5 knots most mere mortals simply can't process it all and act to isolate the burning engine without going past V1. So, when close to V1 we must trust the old reflexes to kick in with the standard reject, i.e. idle, speedbrake, brakes and full reverse etc etc. and not try to be too clever or creative. Better to be stopped on the runway on fire than off the end impaled against a brick wall or worse and out of reach of the emergency services - fire or no fire.
As for the argument that stopping is not predicated on the use of reverse anyway, tell that to anyone who works at maximum weight off slippery, hot, high or short runways.
The other chestnut, do you turn the aeroplane crosswind to blow the fire away from the fuselage? Are you smart enough to work out what this will do for emergency service vehicle access? It all assumes that you have memorised the wind direction and in the heat of the moment can compute such things and not make it worse by turning the wrong way. One thing in the sim, another on a dark night at an unfamiliar airport.
As for the argument that stopping is not predicated on the use of reverse anyway, tell that to anyone who works at maximum weight off slippery, hot, high or short runways.
The other chestnut, do you turn the aeroplane crosswind to blow the fire away from the fuselage? Are you smart enough to work out what this will do for emergency service vehicle access? It all assumes that you have memorised the wind direction and in the heat of the moment can compute such things and not make it worse by turning the wrong way. One thing in the sim, another on a dark night at an unfamiliar airport.
Last edited by Mach E Avelli; 24th May 2009 at 08:05.
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Chieftan Forced Landing
Who was flying the aircraft? There was an ABC television news item tonight (26May) saying from the company that it was not company pilots flying the aircraft.
CASA have been known to fly the aircraft in question so was it a CASA crew flying the aircraft involved in the incident?
CASA have been known to fly the aircraft in question so was it a CASA crew flying the aircraft involved in the incident?
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If a Cessna 172 is flying an ILS or PAPI or VASIS approach to landing, is the IAS controlled by the elevator or the throttle? - keeping in mind most flying schools teach rate of descent controlled by throttle and speed controlled by elevators which is the reverse of airline technique.
