Missed GPSRNAV Approach at YWOL
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I say again then, there is no automatic waypoint sequencing after the mapp...
After using them for the last 4 years and not sure how many approaches, I'm sure I know how to use them and what they do...
Quote:
I disagree. The missed approach holding point IS sequenced after the missed approach point. The fact that the GPS doesn't load it automatically does not mean it is not sequenced. The sequence is suspended until YOU decide that you want to go to the missed approach holding point, then after pressing OBS/GOTO (depending on your make of unit) the sequence is continued.
After using them for the last 4 years and not sure how many approaches, I'm sure I know how to use them and what they do...
Quote:
I disagree. The missed approach holding point IS sequenced after the missed approach point. The fact that the GPS doesn't load it automatically does not mean it is not sequenced. The sequence is suspended until YOU decide that you want to go to the missed approach holding point, then after pressing OBS/GOTO (depending on your make of unit) the sequence is continued.
Thread Starter
I say again then, there is no automatic waypoint sequencing after the mapp
Last edited by bentleg; 15th May 2009 at 10:20.
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Whether it is suspended or not, the fact remains that you dont have an automatic sequencing from the mapp, as I said, if you want to split hairs on the terminology then thats fine, I really cant be bothered. I was trying to help the original poster with something fairly simple till you made it hard...
Sure if you want, the hold waypoint may well be sequenced after the mapp point in the flight plan but how do you navigate to it if you do nothing... It will automaticly default to the aerodrome ref for the approach that was loaded, so therefore, I go back to my original point.
There is no automatic waypoint sequencing onto the mapp procedure, therefore you need to select the next waypoint and operate direct to it after comencing the mapp, then use the obs function if required.
Ie: start the climb, make the turn in the right direction iaw the mapp procedure, then direct to the next waypoint-if you have to intercept a specific track to the next waypoint then use the obs function after and set the required track and intercept it. Remember though, if you are navigating to a hold and the hold is flown (flown in obs) you will need to go back to leg mode to carry out another approach, we do it after the turn inbound (if conducting another app).
Remember that when you do go back to leg mode it will stay on the radial set by you (should be the inbound track for the hold) till you cross the fix. You will also need to be in leg mode to provide the sequencing from enr/terminal, to app arm and app act for the next app.
This is the way the company like it and it works every time, as long as there is raim etc...
Hope this has helped some...
Last edited by always inverted; 17th May 2009 at 05:18.
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Always Inverted,
totally agree with you. Automatic waypoint sequencing terminates at the missed approach point.
Simple, you are no longer flying the approach, you are either visual or if not, you've got a missed approach to fly.
The KLN89B will offer you the Missed Approach Holding point when you select "Go TO',
but before you press enter, you will need to comply with the missed approach instructions.
These instructions will often have you track straight ahead on the final approach heading while you climb to and attain a minimum altitude,
at which time you can then track to the MAPH waypoint. YIFL (Innisfail) immediately comes to mind as an example.
Simply, when you invoke (activate) an RNAV approach, the GPS will add a set of sequenced waypoints to your existing flight plan or in some (Garmin) to your destination.
The inserted waypoints start from a selected entry point e.g. WOLNA and finish at the Missed approach waypoint (WOLNM).
If you conduct the missed approach you will, after meeting certain requirements, track to H (WOLNH), and then decide to shoot an other approach,
an alternative approach, or divert to somewhere else.
Section 5 of the KLN89B manual (yes, you can download it) tells you all about what "always inverted" and others have already said.
There are a couple of very good articles on RNAV approaches, The Digest, 2005 had an excellent plain english 3 page write up.
The ATSB has also published a documented dealing with perceived pilot difficulties with GPS RNAV approach procedures.
Understood, properly trained and correctly interpreted, the RNAV approach is as good as a Localizer DME approach.
Not fully understood, not properly trained, or not correctly interpreted, it can be a life shortening experience.
Read your GPS manual, read the UK and other aviation authority websites, and understand whats really going on and you have a very safe and efficient instrument approach procedure.
I have flown hundreds of RNAV approaches using KLN89B, Trimble, Garmin 155, Garmin 300, Garmin 430, Garmin 530.
Even though the KLN89B is a very clever piece of equipment with enormous functionality, nothing compares to the less sophisticated and possibly more user friendly Garmin family.
Garmin tends to be more intuitive, a bit like Nokia mobile phones, use one model and you can stumble through the rest OK.
Good to see you endorsed on RNAV, seems to be mainly regional and mainline used with minimum take up of GA users, for various reasons.
p.s. I always try to fly an unfamiliar RNAV approach in visual conditions before I commit to doing that approach in IMC.
The Lockhart River Rwy 12 RNAV is quite exciting flown visually, you just know you've got to get the steps right if in IMC or you will bounce!
totally agree with you. Automatic waypoint sequencing terminates at the missed approach point.
Simple, you are no longer flying the approach, you are either visual or if not, you've got a missed approach to fly.
The KLN89B will offer you the Missed Approach Holding point when you select "Go TO',
but before you press enter, you will need to comply with the missed approach instructions.
These instructions will often have you track straight ahead on the final approach heading while you climb to and attain a minimum altitude,
at which time you can then track to the MAPH waypoint. YIFL (Innisfail) immediately comes to mind as an example.
Simply, when you invoke (activate) an RNAV approach, the GPS will add a set of sequenced waypoints to your existing flight plan or in some (Garmin) to your destination.
The inserted waypoints start from a selected entry point e.g. WOLNA and finish at the Missed approach waypoint (WOLNM).
If you conduct the missed approach you will, after meeting certain requirements, track to H (WOLNH), and then decide to shoot an other approach,
an alternative approach, or divert to somewhere else.
Section 5 of the KLN89B manual (yes, you can download it) tells you all about what "always inverted" and others have already said.
There are a couple of very good articles on RNAV approaches, The Digest, 2005 had an excellent plain english 3 page write up.
The ATSB has also published a documented dealing with perceived pilot difficulties with GPS RNAV approach procedures.
Understood, properly trained and correctly interpreted, the RNAV approach is as good as a Localizer DME approach.
Not fully understood, not properly trained, or not correctly interpreted, it can be a life shortening experience.
Read your GPS manual, read the UK and other aviation authority websites, and understand whats really going on and you have a very safe and efficient instrument approach procedure.
I have flown hundreds of RNAV approaches using KLN89B, Trimble, Garmin 155, Garmin 300, Garmin 430, Garmin 530.
Even though the KLN89B is a very clever piece of equipment with enormous functionality, nothing compares to the less sophisticated and possibly more user friendly Garmin family.
Garmin tends to be more intuitive, a bit like Nokia mobile phones, use one model and you can stumble through the rest OK.
Good to see you endorsed on RNAV, seems to be mainly regional and mainline used with minimum take up of GA users, for various reasons.
p.s. I always try to fly an unfamiliar RNAV approach in visual conditions before I commit to doing that approach in IMC.
The Lockhart River Rwy 12 RNAV is quite exciting flown visually, you just know you've got to get the steps right if in IMC or you will bounce!
always inverted and mainframe,
I think we all agree on the sequence of events after the missed approach is reached. We probably had a disagreement because of terminology. Thats cool, as I said I think we are all on the same page.
However I think the original poster raises an important issue of what the gps does or is going to do after you reach the missed approach holding point. That is why I described things like turn anticipation, and flyby waypoints. It appears the gps is doing something weird after the activation of the missed approach holding point, and that is impacting upon the pilots' ability to actually reach the missed approach holding point.
Looks like the answer for the KLN89 is to fly to the holding point in 'obs' mode.
I guess the lesson to be learnt is know your equipment, and until you are confident with it practice in VMC first.
alpha
I think we all agree on the sequence of events after the missed approach is reached. We probably had a disagreement because of terminology. Thats cool, as I said I think we are all on the same page.
However I think the original poster raises an important issue of what the gps does or is going to do after you reach the missed approach holding point. That is why I described things like turn anticipation, and flyby waypoints. It appears the gps is doing something weird after the activation of the missed approach holding point, and that is impacting upon the pilots' ability to actually reach the missed approach holding point.
Looks like the answer for the KLN89 is to fly to the holding point in 'obs' mode.
I guess the lesson to be learnt is know your equipment, and until you are confident with it practice in VMC first.
alpha
Thank you all
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Alphacenturi, no I dont think that the unit is doing anything wierd... The unit is doing what it is supposed to, it may well be you as the end user that does not fully understand what is happening. As I have said, I have been using the kln90b for the past nearly 5 years and it does what it should, well mostly.
The problem lies with using a similar unit, ie: kln89 and thinking that it will do the same things, this will lead to a cfit accident, as it has in the past.
Without reading the post again, from what I remember of it, it sounds like it is doing what it should when the unit is still in leg mode, thats why holds are flown in obs, to prevent the sequence to the next point after crossing the hold fix untill you are ready...
Everything with aviation comes back to the same acrynum K.I.S.S, keep it simple stupid... Dont get bogged down with the terminology if it confuses you, learn the way things work and then sort out the exact way to say it...
I will sometimes have a f/o who will see a master warning flasher and piss around deciding what the exact term is for it in the sop's/ manuals instead of saying what they are seeing - KISS...
To the original poster, I hope I have helped.
The problem lies with using a similar unit, ie: kln89 and thinking that it will do the same things, this will lead to a cfit accident, as it has in the past.
Without reading the post again, from what I remember of it, it sounds like it is doing what it should when the unit is still in leg mode, thats why holds are flown in obs, to prevent the sequence to the next point after crossing the hold fix untill you are ready...
Everything with aviation comes back to the same acrynum K.I.S.S, keep it simple stupid... Dont get bogged down with the terminology if it confuses you, learn the way things work and then sort out the exact way to say it...
I will sometimes have a f/o who will see a master warning flasher and piss around deciding what the exact term is for it in the sop's/ manuals instead of saying what they are seeing - KISS...
To the original poster, I hope I have helped.
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always_inverted, what you're describing is the the kind of 'work around' that is put in place and followed, hopefully via SOPs, to deal with system limitations.
alpha's explanation deals with how the approach is constructed, why these limitations develop, and why the 'work around' you've described is necessary.
Incidentally, from an approach construction point of view alpha is spot on, but at a technical level that pilots aren't required to know. We just have to know how to make it do what we want.
So now we know how to fly it, and why it should be done that way.
A beautiful thing.
Now go outside and play.
alpha's explanation deals with how the approach is constructed, why these limitations develop, and why the 'work around' you've described is necessary.
Incidentally, from an approach construction point of view alpha is spot on, but at a technical level that pilots aren't required to know. We just have to know how to make it do what we want.
So now we know how to fly it, and why it should be done that way.
A beautiful thing.
Now go outside and play.
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exactly, so surely then, the only things that the original poster needs to know is what they may not be doing correctly following the mapp, not the technical rubbish that goes into the internal operation of the unit.
Also Alpha may not be that up with the kln90b as they would know that it is not doing anything wierd...
Guessing that the proceedure in one king unit will be the same as another is very dangerous and I hope that my family are not on their flights...
Turn antisipate and flyby waypoints are irrelevant to this issue so I get the impression that alpha may be an instructer that talks alot but does not know that much... I may be wrong.
Surely if you knew the kln90b you would know that the holds are flown in obs...(see the above comment again)
Also Alpha may not be that up with the kln90b as they would know that it is not doing anything wierd...
Guessing that the proceedure in one king unit will be the same as another is very dangerous and I hope that my family are not on their flights...
Turn antisipate and flyby waypoints are irrelevant to this issue so I get the impression that alpha may be an instructer that talks alot but does not know that much... I may be wrong.
Surely if you knew the kln90b you would know that the holds are flown in obs...
(see the above comment again)
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I'm just wondering, having been highly impressed by the wealth of information I'd read at the start of this thread, how always inverted feels about dropping the intellectual standard back to primary school classroom level?
Perhaps if you're going to get so worked up over a PPrune thread again (which I highly suspect will happen, and soon) I suggest that you lie down for a while, then come back and read what's been written a second time before you make childish retorts. If you'd done that, you'd have noticed that what alpha actually said was:
"That is why I described things like turn anticipation, and flyby waypoints. It appears the gps is doing something weird after the activation ........ and that is impacting upon the pilots' ability to actually reach the missed approach holding point."
Perhaps on a second reading you might see that alpha doesn't believe the unit is doing something weird, but that the pilot in the situation may see it that way. Let's just say for example, someone who's been taught the work around and didn't actually understand how the unit itself worked. =)
On a slightly more positive note, I thought this forum was a wealth of information to anyone learning the ropes on these types of GPS units. Well done guys.
Snow.
Perhaps if you're going to get so worked up over a PPrune thread again (which I highly suspect will happen, and soon) I suggest that you lie down for a while, then come back and read what's been written a second time before you make childish retorts. If you'd done that, you'd have noticed that what alpha actually said was:
"That is why I described things like turn anticipation, and flyby waypoints. It appears the gps is doing something weird after the activation ........ and that is impacting upon the pilots' ability to actually reach the missed approach holding point."
Perhaps on a second reading you might see that alpha doesn't believe the unit is doing something weird, but that the pilot in the situation may see it that way. Let's just say for example, someone who's been taught the work around and didn't actually understand how the unit itself worked. =)
On a slightly more positive note, I thought this forum was a wealth of information to anyone learning the ropes on these types of GPS units. Well done guys.
Snow.
Thread Starter
As the guy who asked the question in the first place , I did think what happened was odd and sought advice from those with experience.
The advice given on the technical side, waypoint anticipation etc, was appreciated and helped me understand what happened and how I can best manage it in the future. From my point of view it is all good stuff and not too technical.
I'll be having another go at the approach soon and look forward to trying out what I have learnt from this thread. Thanks again to all the contributors.
The advice given on the technical side, waypoint anticipation etc, was appreciated and helped me understand what happened and how I can best manage it in the future. From my point of view it is all good stuff and not too technical.
I'll be having another go at the approach soon and look forward to trying out what I have learnt from this thread. Thanks again to all the contributors.
