Griffith Bachlor of Aviation a waste of time?
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Griffith Bachlor of Aviation a waste of time?
Currently pursuing this Degree and wondering if it will hold any substance when it comes to finding a job.
Could be 3 years of flying(or hunting for a job in this recession) rather than studying, what do you all think?
Any help is greatly appreciated!
Griffith University | Bachelor of Aviation - Nathan
Could be 3 years of flying(or hunting for a job in this recession) rather than studying, what do you all think?
Any help is greatly appreciated!
Griffith University | Bachelor of Aviation - Nathan
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Dabz,
If the program was at least covered under FEE-Help where you could offset the costs of flying (similar to the program offered by Swinburne) - I would say that it is a great opportunity for fresh high school graduates. However you're going to be paying for training the same way you would if you were to do this privately. You'll also complete the training in 1/3 of the time (more or less) as it does to get an 'aviation' degree. If you are in fact considering a university degree, I would look into fields such as economics, business, engineering, etc. These will provide you with a backup plan when at the bottom of the aviation cycle - The bachelor of aviation won't.
So the sooner you have the training completed the sooner you can start accruing valuable experience. Although there isn't a lot of jobs out there at the moment, the shortage of instructors is very much existent and could be worth exploring while you wait for things to pick up again...
Good luck with your training
Carambar
If the program was at least covered under FEE-Help where you could offset the costs of flying (similar to the program offered by Swinburne) - I would say that it is a great opportunity for fresh high school graduates. However you're going to be paying for training the same way you would if you were to do this privately. You'll also complete the training in 1/3 of the time (more or less) as it does to get an 'aviation' degree. If you are in fact considering a university degree, I would look into fields such as economics, business, engineering, etc. These will provide you with a backup plan when at the bottom of the aviation cycle - The bachelor of aviation won't.
So the sooner you have the training completed the sooner you can start accruing valuable experience. Although there isn't a lot of jobs out there at the moment, the shortage of instructors is very much existent and could be worth exploring while you wait for things to pick up again...
Good luck with your training
Carambar
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A qualification is only worthwhile if you can do something with it.
Just having something to add to your CV is not worth the time.
What use is a person as a pilot with an aviation degree but virtually no experience?
You need licences, ratings and experience to get anywhere in Aviation, you don't need a dubious tertiary qualification.
In the US they are advertising degrees in Criminal Justice?.
It's not law, I don't know what it is. Some of the possibilities after "graduation" are parole officer, evidence processing or "legal officer" , hardly worth the time.
Bachelor of Aviation , waste of time.
Want to fly, go flying.
Only my opinion
Just having something to add to your CV is not worth the time.
What use is a person as a pilot with an aviation degree but virtually no experience?
You need licences, ratings and experience to get anywhere in Aviation, you don't need a dubious tertiary qualification.
In the US they are advertising degrees in Criminal Justice?.
It's not law, I don't know what it is. Some of the possibilities after "graduation" are parole officer, evidence processing or "legal officer" , hardly worth the time.
Bachelor of Aviation , waste of time.
Want to fly, go flying.
Only my opinion
I wouldn't compare Australia and the US in degrees. Over there you need a degree to do anything.
As said above a degree is only worth what you an do with it. Don't do an aviation one, do something worthwhile. Whether it Commerce, Engineering or whatever else you're capable of, it will at least give you some options if things fall over. Despite what the unis say aviation degrees are effectively worthless. The industry doesn't recognise them and most other industries don't recognise them either.
As said above a degree is only worth what you an do with it. Don't do an aviation one, do something worthwhile. Whether it Commerce, Engineering or whatever else you're capable of, it will at least give you some options if things fall over. Despite what the unis say aviation degrees are effectively worthless. The industry doesn't recognise them and most other industries don't recognise them either.
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very good point about going for a degree only if you're going to use it.
I had ambitions to go beyond becoming a pilot and move into a role of flying/helping the industry grow and become safer. Thought this degree could help in this regards.
Mind you it was just a thought and we all need to crawl before we can walk.
I take it you would all say a pilot who doesn't hold an aviation degree but has all the ratings, hours and is current would get the interview over the inexperienced/non current/rated pilot with the degree in aviation?
I had ambitions to go beyond becoming a pilot and move into a role of flying/helping the industry grow and become safer. Thought this degree could help in this regards.
Mind you it was just a thought and we all need to crawl before we can walk.
I take it you would all say a pilot who doesn't hold an aviation degree but has all the ratings, hours and is current would get the interview over the inexperienced/non current/rated pilot with the degree in aviation?
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In that particular scenario, it becomes obvious which of the two pilots is most attractive to the airlines. The inexperienced/non-current pilot will require more training, ground school, etc in order to reach the airline's standards and complete his/her line check than the experience/current pilot. In this way, the experienced pilot is effectively cheaper to recruit.
Although the aviation degree might give you some exposure to areas such as air safety or airline management in general - The bottom like is when applying for a job as a pilot, this does not come into the equation.
As mentionned in my previous post, if you're looking into management/ops positions - You best be looking at degrees like business, commerce, law, etc and combine these with your flying experience.
Although the aviation degree might give you some exposure to areas such as air safety or airline management in general - The bottom like is when applying for a job as a pilot, this does not come into the equation.
As mentionned in my previous post, if you're looking into management/ops positions - You best be looking at degrees like business, commerce, law, etc and combine these with your flying experience.
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Carambar - The flying is actually covered by FEE-HELP, it's very similar to Swinburne in structure, although looking at the link to that site its not worded very clearly, if at all. However, I am on the inside, and I can guarantee you that it is covered.
I'm not advocating whether you should enroll, but if you do be prepared for a very Qantas-Cadet-Centric environment. You don't tend to hear much at all about GA, or any other airlines really. And most of the students are shooting for the cadetship, and they can be quite cut-throat about that. I've only been there a bit over a year and I've been burnt pretty bad twice, this coming from people who have never even set foot in a light aircraft. It's not all bad though, you'd get to meet (some) good people, they run sessions on a Wednesday night designed to help get you a job (interview techniques, public speaking etc), and the rate of people getting into the QF cadetship is higher than the general population (6/35 last year, not really a lot, but I'm told that most of the people missed out because they didn't research the company i.e. didn't know what routes QF flies, didn't know about the seniority system etc, whether thats all spin or not I can't say).
In summation;
Is it a waste of your time? -> At 3 years to go through to either MECIR or Grade 3 instructor, well probably yes.
Will you have a better shot at the airlines? -> You'd probably be more prepared for the QF cadetship than most, and on paper if you were applying to an airline and it came down to you and someone with equal hours and no degree, well I'd say a lot would depend on your interview skills but a degree is a check in the box.
Will the flight school fees be covered by FEE-HELP? -> Yes. On top of that they will also cover either an extra 50 hours flight time (incl. Aerobatics), or all the textbooks, exams, Jepps, etc covered.
Will it cost more than doing the CPL on my own? -> Yes. I'm not sure what the cost of the degree is, but I think it's somewhere in the region of $25000 - $30000, though would not be surprised to learn that it's more. The flight training is done at AAA out at Archerfield, I haven't trained there so I can't comment on the quality, but in my experience it costs less per hour to train at a smaller aerodrome. Remember that HECS and FEE debts don't start to get paid off until you earn upwards of $46000pa.
Would I recommend it to you? -> IF you have the money to go pay for the CPL up front, no. I reckon you'd be better off going and getting the CPL, if you're keen on getting a degree you could always take an online degree in business or something, Griffith offers this. If money is tight, then yeh, I would probably recommend it. At least when I'm earning a low wage as a low time GA pilot I don't have to worry about making fixed payments to a bank. So there is that.
I hope that helps, I didn't really mean to write that much but meh. I'm not trying to persuade or dissuade you from anything, just passing along my personal experiences.
Cheers
I'm not advocating whether you should enroll, but if you do be prepared for a very Qantas-Cadet-Centric environment. You don't tend to hear much at all about GA, or any other airlines really. And most of the students are shooting for the cadetship, and they can be quite cut-throat about that. I've only been there a bit over a year and I've been burnt pretty bad twice, this coming from people who have never even set foot in a light aircraft. It's not all bad though, you'd get to meet (some) good people, they run sessions on a Wednesday night designed to help get you a job (interview techniques, public speaking etc), and the rate of people getting into the QF cadetship is higher than the general population (6/35 last year, not really a lot, but I'm told that most of the people missed out because they didn't research the company i.e. didn't know what routes QF flies, didn't know about the seniority system etc, whether thats all spin or not I can't say).
In summation;
Is it a waste of your time? -> At 3 years to go through to either MECIR or Grade 3 instructor, well probably yes.
Will you have a better shot at the airlines? -> You'd probably be more prepared for the QF cadetship than most, and on paper if you were applying to an airline and it came down to you and someone with equal hours and no degree, well I'd say a lot would depend on your interview skills but a degree is a check in the box.
Will the flight school fees be covered by FEE-HELP? -> Yes. On top of that they will also cover either an extra 50 hours flight time (incl. Aerobatics), or all the textbooks, exams, Jepps, etc covered.
Will it cost more than doing the CPL on my own? -> Yes. I'm not sure what the cost of the degree is, but I think it's somewhere in the region of $25000 - $30000, though would not be surprised to learn that it's more. The flight training is done at AAA out at Archerfield, I haven't trained there so I can't comment on the quality, but in my experience it costs less per hour to train at a smaller aerodrome. Remember that HECS and FEE debts don't start to get paid off until you earn upwards of $46000pa.
Would I recommend it to you? -> IF you have the money to go pay for the CPL up front, no. I reckon you'd be better off going and getting the CPL, if you're keen on getting a degree you could always take an online degree in business or something, Griffith offers this. If money is tight, then yeh, I would probably recommend it. At least when I'm earning a low wage as a low time GA pilot I don't have to worry about making fixed payments to a bank. So there is that.
I hope that helps, I didn't really mean to write that much but meh. I'm not trying to persuade or dissuade you from anything, just passing along my personal experiences.
Cheers
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Personal experience: While a degree MAY look good on paper, I don't believe the aviation degrees in Australia (at least) provide you with any more knowledge / wisdom than the guy (or girl) who did his/her CPL/MECIR and ATPL exams. Like others have said, the other guy/girl will be out there with that same knowledge gaining experience in half the time you will be.
Increasedescent,
If you are as young as you say you are there is no way you 'personal experience' could allow you to have that opinion as you wouldn't have even finished the 2nd year of any degree. If you are relaying second hand info however, that is a different matter...
j3
If you are as young as you say you are there is no way you 'personal experience' could allow you to have that opinion as you wouldn't have even finished the 2nd year of any degree. If you are relaying second hand info however, that is a different matter...
j3
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j3,
You sound like a graduate?
Correct I haven't finished my degree. I have 3 out of 24 courses remaining to be completed, hopefully within 6 months, with an in-depth knowledge on what I have left to learn. This does not make me 'experienced' whatsoever in this industry, however, having completed the ATPL theory also, I do think that gives me the right to have an opinion on the knowledge benefits of the degree I have almost completed.
Yes. I have heard similar stories from two other universities - so took it upon myself to generalize - perhaps foolishly. I do, however, still stand by my previous statement, you are entitled to your own opinion.
ID
You sound like a graduate?
you wouldn't have even finished the 2nd year of any degree
If you are relaying second hand info
ID
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Without starting WWIII, I would have to agree with increasedescent. Found the majority of my aviation degree courses to be either CPL / ATPL theory or completely irrelevant! All the same still glad to have done it.
Last edited by bilko09; 23rd Apr 2009 at 16:34.
I hold a BSc (Hons) and MSc in Software Engineering from good UK Universities.
The Qualifications are worthless. No Airline cares. They like age (<), total time (>) and equipment (i.e Q400, 737, A320 etc) and quality (i.e. BA is better than Air Bongo Africa).
**** the BSc/MSc - if anything it hinders me as it will invariably be raised at interview when you want them just to brush over it and get to the real stuff. If I could I'd leave it off the CV - but its hard to justify 5 years of my life any other way. But I will say it has never ever helped me as far as I know.
The Qualifications are worthless. No Airline cares. They like age (<), total time (>) and equipment (i.e Q400, 737, A320 etc) and quality (i.e. BA is better than Air Bongo Africa).
**** the BSc/MSc - if anything it hinders me as it will invariably be raised at interview when you want them just to brush over it and get to the real stuff. If I could I'd leave it off the CV - but its hard to justify 5 years of my life any other way. But I will say it has never ever helped me as far as I know.
Flash 8 (should that be now Flash CS4? 
)- You'll be quite glad to have those degrees when you are retrenched from an airline due to a downturn....
)- You'll be quite glad to have those degrees when you are retrenched from an airline due to a downturn....
Increased Descent
Yes I am a graduate.
And this is not meant to be condescending, but you don't know all the benefits of the degree as you are not in the industry yet.
J3
Yes I am a graduate.
And this is not meant to be condescending, but you don't know all the benefits of the degree as you are not in the industry yet.
J3
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j3,
My apologies if it came across as anything else, but I was merely meaning to give my opinion on the benefits knowledge-wise. If there are other benefits to an aviation degree I hope to see them in the future. It appears there are a few experienced ones here that share a similar opinion.
ID
My apologies if it came across as anything else, but I was merely meaning to give my opinion on the benefits knowledge-wise. If there are other benefits to an aviation degree I hope to see them in the future. It appears there are a few experienced ones here that share a similar opinion.
ID
Moderator
It is very difficult to form a balanced view on a topic which tends to polarise. From my chair ...
(a) a degree etc has little direct value when it comes to flying an ILS etc.
In a Sioux City situation, an extensive certification and flight test background might have helped out just a little but that is in the realm of vanishing probability so not really worth worrying about.
(b) a good degree shows an ability to study and pass a few exams so it might be of some value in the selection filtering process.
Having said that, and having read Aero Engineering, the ATPLs, while much simpler in content, were much harder to pass due to the mix of time limit and pass mark .. those with tech degrees will probably be quite familiar with the well known university "zero shifting" theorem as applied to examination marking.
Certainly, I got into airlines with significantly less flying experience than my then intake colleagues and that wasn't a consequence of having a pretty face, I can assure you ... subsequent (very much later) discussions over a beer indicated that the interest was in what I may have been useful for some years down the track.
The Australian airlines at the time had a reasonable minority proportion of graduate pilots so there was some interest being shown across the board by the employment process.
(c) so where is the value for the average pilot Joe in getting a degree ?
First, one is well advised to consider seriously marketable degrees .. Law, Medicine, Engineering, Architecture, Vet Science, etc. If you look at Arts, Science and other more generalist degrees, one probably needs a Masters (or, at least, a good Honours level) to make the qualification of marketable value.
Second, if you address the above, if you lose your flying job .. medical ? industrial (consider the wide effects of 1989) .. you are in a much better place to put food on the table, etc.
The other strategy and I think the better approach .. is to run with the flying, get the job .. and then do a marketable degree part time or by remote learning. This is the hard way to get the bit of paper but gives you the overall best probable outcome.
(a) a degree etc has little direct value when it comes to flying an ILS etc.
In a Sioux City situation, an extensive certification and flight test background might have helped out just a little but that is in the realm of vanishing probability so not really worth worrying about.
(b) a good degree shows an ability to study and pass a few exams so it might be of some value in the selection filtering process.
Having said that, and having read Aero Engineering, the ATPLs, while much simpler in content, were much harder to pass due to the mix of time limit and pass mark .. those with tech degrees will probably be quite familiar with the well known university "zero shifting" theorem as applied to examination marking.
Certainly, I got into airlines with significantly less flying experience than my then intake colleagues and that wasn't a consequence of having a pretty face, I can assure you ... subsequent (very much later) discussions over a beer indicated that the interest was in what I may have been useful for some years down the track.
The Australian airlines at the time had a reasonable minority proportion of graduate pilots so there was some interest being shown across the board by the employment process.
(c) so where is the value for the average pilot Joe in getting a degree ?
First, one is well advised to consider seriously marketable degrees .. Law, Medicine, Engineering, Architecture, Vet Science, etc. If you look at Arts, Science and other more generalist degrees, one probably needs a Masters (or, at least, a good Honours level) to make the qualification of marketable value.
Second, if you address the above, if you lose your flying job .. medical ? industrial (consider the wide effects of 1989) .. you are in a much better place to put food on the table, etc.
The other strategy and I think the better approach .. is to run with the flying, get the job .. and then do a marketable degree part time or by remote learning. This is the hard way to get the bit of paper but gives you the overall best probable outcome.
Seasonally Adjusted
Anyway if you don't get a degree and the downturn really bites, you can go and work at Mcdonnalds with all the other unemployed pilots.