IFR Departure - Climb to MSA/LSALT within 3nm?
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Interesting........
43Inches, Good points what if we look at a scenario down at Albury. The airport is socked in with BNK low cloud (say 500ft) pouring rain but VIS is well above 2 km and the ATIS dictates multiple layers or BNK cloud to say 3000ft. There is no SID for Albury, and there is pretty nasty terrain around Albury as it is in a bit of a valley. So after you get your airways clearance you ask for your company departure. What if ATC can’t comply due inbound traffic and an overhead departure is also not available ect ect. (Pretty unlikely I know but it does get busy down there with several RPT cuing up for the approach on a bad day)
Do you wait on the ground for traffic congestion to minimize?
Do you wait for the weather to improve?
Do you depart knowing that if a donk gives in you won’t be able to maintain terrain clearance? (talking GA twins)
Why don’t they have a SID for AY? I think Tamworth has one from memory!
Just my 2 cents I am sure someone older and wiser will shed some light!
43Inches, Good points what if we look at a scenario down at Albury. The airport is socked in with BNK low cloud (say 500ft) pouring rain but VIS is well above 2 km and the ATIS dictates multiple layers or BNK cloud to say 3000ft. There is no SID for Albury, and there is pretty nasty terrain around Albury as it is in a bit of a valley. So after you get your airways clearance you ask for your company departure. What if ATC can’t comply due inbound traffic and an overhead departure is also not available ect ect. (Pretty unlikely I know but it does get busy down there with several RPT cuing up for the approach on a bad day)
Do you wait on the ground for traffic congestion to minimize?
Do you wait for the weather to improve?
Do you depart knowing that if a donk gives in you won’t be able to maintain terrain clearance? (talking GA twins)
Why don’t they have a SID for AY? I think Tamworth has one from memory!
Just my 2 cents I am sure someone older and wiser will shed some light!
PPRuNeaholic
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I don't know much about Albury except that it used to be the place where I had to change trains between NSW and VIC! 
However, I do know about aerodromes that are close to high and/or steep terrain.
First problem is that, to get a decent SID for such a place will usually require climb gradients that few, if any, aircraft can meet.
Having resolved that problem, the next problem is that the designer confines an aircraft to a specific track that will, in all probability, ultimately steer the poor pilot straight into a thunderstorm factory.
Game... set... match... :ugh
I think that everyone needs to appreciate that, if the aerodrome doesn't have a SID, there's a more than fair chance that pilots need to make their own very conservative plans for departure.
Keep safe out there!
However, I do know about aerodromes that are close to high and/or steep terrain.First problem is that, to get a decent SID for such a place will usually require climb gradients that few, if any, aircraft can meet.
Having resolved that problem, the next problem is that the designer confines an aircraft to a specific track that will, in all probability, ultimately steer the poor pilot straight into a thunderstorm factory.
Game... set... match... :ugh
I think that everyone needs to appreciate that, if the aerodrome doesn't have a SID, there's a more than fair chance that pilots need to make their own very conservative plans for departure.
Keep safe out there!
airman - few points make albury not a very good example;
1. Albury tower would not let you depart into IMC conditions with inbound traffic which could conflict with you until you reach MSA or can manuevre visually to the MSA. It is up to you however to notify the tower or traffic in a CTAF if you require to depart overhead due normal performance requirements.
2. Safety beyond that is up to you and if your escape route is blocked by traffic or lack of clearance then any of your options apply.
Also an aircraft with engine loss below MSA would declare an urgent situation (Mayday or Pan-Pan) due to restricted performance/manuevrability, the tower would be forced to relocate traffic to improve your situation. You do whatever is necessary to avoid hitting the ground including turns contrary to clearance and notify the tower as soon as you are able to.
3. A SID at albury would not help aircraft in an emegency as the minimum design gradient for a SID is 3.3 degrees, I would assume an AY SID would initially be much higher than that. SID do not allow for performance degredation following an engine failure and exist mostly to provide noise abatement and traffic segregation until positioned en-route.
1. Albury tower would not let you depart into IMC conditions with inbound traffic which could conflict with you until you reach MSA or can manuevre visually to the MSA. It is up to you however to notify the tower or traffic in a CTAF if you require to depart overhead due normal performance requirements.
2. Safety beyond that is up to you and if your escape route is blocked by traffic or lack of clearance then any of your options apply.
Do you wait on the ground for traffic congestion to minimize?
Do you wait for the weather to improve?
Do you wait for the weather to improve?
3. A SID at albury would not help aircraft in an emegency as the minimum design gradient for a SID is 3.3 degrees, I would assume an AY SID would initially be much higher than that. SID do not allow for performance degredation following an engine failure and exist mostly to provide noise abatement and traffic segregation until positioned en-route.
Last edited by 43Inches; 22nd Apr 2009 at 04:59.
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43,
You are correct but...... from my VFR days based at AY anywhere from the 020 radial to the 055 radial it is clear of terrain and also 220 radial to 250 radial is also clear of terrain. My aviation dictionary states a that a SID is used to satisfy "noise abatement procedures, airspace segregation, terrain clearance requirements immediately after takeoff and maxuim traffic flexibility"
While everything you have said is 100% true in my book, if you lost a donk at AY whilst departing in IMC the level segment in which you are trying the get the A/C cleaned up (feathering, shutting down, or fault finding ect ect) whilst it may only be 40 secs or so you may find yourself heading straight for terrain! Just thought that a SID in either of the above radials would allow reasonable terrain clearance (flat terrain) in the event of an emergency especially in a single. In those approx radial directions I don’t think you would need a very excessive SID gradient it's pretty flat from memory.
But we can discuss SIDs for various aerodromes all we like but it has been this way for years and I guess no major miss haps so as always common sense prevails! The big key with any scenario like this as you and other have stated is planning and briefing yourself before lift off.
Fly Safe.
You are correct but...... from my VFR days based at AY anywhere from the 020 radial to the 055 radial it is clear of terrain and also 220 radial to 250 radial is also clear of terrain. My aviation dictionary states a that a SID is used to satisfy "noise abatement procedures, airspace segregation, terrain clearance requirements immediately after takeoff and maxuim traffic flexibility"
While everything you have said is 100% true in my book, if you lost a donk at AY whilst departing in IMC the level segment in which you are trying the get the A/C cleaned up (feathering, shutting down, or fault finding ect ect) whilst it may only be 40 secs or so you may find yourself heading straight for terrain! Just thought that a SID in either of the above radials would allow reasonable terrain clearance (flat terrain) in the event of an emergency especially in a single. In those approx radial directions I don’t think you would need a very excessive SID gradient it's pretty flat from memory.
But we can discuss SIDs for various aerodromes all we like but it has been this way for years and I guess no major miss haps so as always common sense prevails! The big key with any scenario like this as you and other have stated is planning and briefing yourself before lift off.
Fly Safe.
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A SID at albury would not help aircraft in an emegency as the minimum design gradient for a SID is 3.3 degrees,
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No ODP's in Oz?
I did my CPL/ CIR in Oz 10+ years ago. Have now started flying again in the US and re-did my IFR. This place is paradise for pilots, but, one thing we have here which I guess I had forgotten we don't have in Oz is Departure Procedures for every non-towered IFR airport and where relevant, Obstacle Departure Procedures. So, no guess work about reverse engineering the GPS approach or whatever - just follow the DP. When you get your IFR release, ATC will protect the area around the field and over the course of the DP so you know you are good for traffic also. Seems to me that is what we should have in Oz, IMHO.
Here is the ODP for a strip in Vermont that I fly out of sometimes (KDDH):
DEPARTURE PROCEDURE: Rwy 13, climbing left turn
direct to CAM VORTAC, continue climb in hold to 3500
before proceeding on course. Rwy 31, climbing right turn
direct CAM VORTAC continue climb in hold to 3500
before proceeding on course.
Here is the ODP for a strip in Vermont that I fly out of sometimes (KDDH):
DEPARTURE PROCEDURE: Rwy 13, climbing left turn
direct to CAM VORTAC, continue climb in hold to 3500
before proceeding on course. Rwy 31, climbing right turn
direct CAM VORTAC continue climb in hold to 3500
before proceeding on course.
Here's another question for you...
What if you take off IFR from an aerodrome with no navaid. Let's say the LSALT is 3000' and the cloud is at 700', AD is at MSL.
How would you stay within the circling area once you got in the soup? What if there's wind changing strength and direction as you climb? What other options are there? Assuming you don't have GPS/RNAV.
What if you take off IFR from an aerodrome with no navaid. Let's say the LSALT is 3000' and the cloud is at 700', AD is at MSL.
How would you stay within the circling area once you got in the soup? What if there's wind changing strength and direction as you climb? What other options are there? Assuming you don't have GPS/RNAV.
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It really depends what % rate climb you can achieve and what the 10/25 nm MSA is. The same applies to approaches to places like Albury, as light twins might only be able to achieve say a 2% climb OEI so that the published MDA might have to be raised by a few hundred feet for going around if you're not visual.
Has anyone mentioned in this thread one needs to be on track within 5 nm for departures, apart from the usual MSA/LSALT requirements ?
Has anyone mentioned in this thread one needs to be on track within 5 nm for departures, apart from the usual MSA/LSALT requirements ?
