50 hours dual and too dangerous for first solo.
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Any more than a couple of hours instruction in the circuit is just reinforcing bad habits. If they're not reaching the standard, move on to something else so they don't lose hope and try to work out the problem outside the circuit area.
If they still can't do it, send 'em to the sailing club.
If they still can't do it, send 'em to the sailing club.
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Join Date: Apr 2005
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the training had been conducted by different hour hungry junior grade 3 instructors who did not put these students up for regular senior checks and would just fly with them doing session after session of ccts, wondering why they were taking so long.
Of course we will never know the numbers but the point made in the above highlighted paragraph is true. I recall one instructor who flew huge circuits in a 150 in order to (in his own words) allow the student time to settle down. The student was a 15 year old school boy whose parents were happy to pay lots of money for flying lessons not realising the boy could not solo until he turned 16. So his instructor (now an airline captain) flogged the circuit with the kid logging well over 30 hours even though he may have been perfectly capable of going solo in terms of skill.
On another occasion a young woman came to our flying school with over 60 hours of dual. We asked the flying school who had flogged her, for a copy of her progress reports and were initially ignored. A threat to tell CASA finally elicitated a copy of her flying hours but no instructor comments which of course was useless.
On another occasion we had the same problem getting a students progress reports from yet another flying school (student had 25 hours and no solo) and when they arrived the instructors written comments were one liners such as "Mary did better this time" (after 1.1 hours of dual) - or: "Mary- you must check all clear left, centre and right when you do turns" (this after 1.5 hours and that was the only entry in the students sheet. The instructor clearly lack education and had no idea how to describe a students problem. Obviously his instructors course failed to include lectures on the purpose of student records and how to write common sense reports. Of course the CFI should have insisted on a higher standard of report writing, but chances are the CFI never bothered to review his instructors student records for QA purposes.
With some students being given three or four different instructors in the first ten hours of flying lessons and progress reports lacking in a standard hardly beyond primary school English expression, is it any wonder students' flying instruction is a often rip-off. A recent arrival at our flying school revealed she had been taught to "pick up the wing with rudder" in terms of stall wing a wing drop. Pressed to explain, she said the technique taught at her previous school was to push hard on the rudder to skid the 150 around the horizon until the lowered wing gained enough lift to be level. CASA insistence that future grade 3 applicants be tested by a specialised ATO team seemed perfectly justified.
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I am thankful that my early instructors were ex-air force types who demanded and got a good PPL standard. Sometimes they seemed a bit harsh (probably thought they were still in the military) which in this touchy-feely age may not go down too well. But they always got first time passes for the PPL test. Done in those days by CAA not the school, so it was more difficult to fudge. The school probably would not have dared to put up a sub-standard student for test.
When I went on to CPL my instructor was a junior who had only just qualified and only had about 100 hours more than me. I did not learn anything useful from this guy, so after a few hours with him demanded to only fly dual with the ex-airforce pilots or I would take my business to the opposition.
When a student is not progressing, an instructor change may fix the problem and so should be automatic at a certain stage. But the really useless ones still need to be removed from the system before they hurt themselves or someone else. With many schools also conducting their own tests, this does not always happen.
One major school in the USA used to advertise 'Pass Guaranteed". A worry.
When I went on to CPL my instructor was a junior who had only just qualified and only had about 100 hours more than me. I did not learn anything useful from this guy, so after a few hours with him demanded to only fly dual with the ex-airforce pilots or I would take my business to the opposition.
When a student is not progressing, an instructor change may fix the problem and so should be automatic at a certain stage. But the really useless ones still need to be removed from the system before they hurt themselves or someone else. With many schools also conducting their own tests, this does not always happen.
One major school in the USA used to advertise 'Pass Guaranteed". A worry.
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Have had students pretty much like the others mentioned here.
Only two ever got over 40 hrs prior to solo, both were taken over from other instructors who had given up and hand balled them.
Case 1 . Young bloke who just could not do things in the right order, or who would apply the opposite input to what was required. Progress sheets very interesting to read, very keen but seemingly no aptitude at all. Had a very long talk about relative cost for continued progress, and whether he may prefer to by a really nice car and or speed boat etc, maybe even very large cruiser and a Merc to pull it with, but if he really wanted to continue I would try my very best to give him best value for money I could, and maybe even get him solo at which pilont he may wish to accept the solo certificate and then cut his losses and buy a smaller boat with whatever was left of his funds. Told him to go away for a couple of weeks, have a good hard look at it all and come back with the answer (expecting, even hoping, to never hear from him again). He came back keener than ever and we didn’t progress much, despite my trying every passive and active reward scheme and lesson type I could, until I implemented an ‘aversion therapy’ method that involved the fuel dipstick and his knuckles – MIRACULOUS IMPROVEMENT from the first resounding ‘Crack’. Rapid onward progress and ultimately CPL and MECIR! Could hardly believe it myself!! – In general this method is NOT recommended due to potential liability issues and OH&S rules.
Case 2. 80 odd (very odd) year old woman who wanted to learn to fly in her late husband’s tailwheel aircraft. Very fussy and vocally critical old biddy that would only fly with instructor(s) who were family friends. Considered herself genteel and was from landed gentry, the miserable bag. I took her over when her part-time instructor ‘friends’ were utterly exasperated and fed up with her deciding what was going to happen at each lesson. I was not her friend (I was an ag pilot and instructor, I was a tradesman pilot who flew for a living) and I did not need to comply with her directions. I shortened her lessons and observed very carefully her performance and consistency for the next 7 or 8 lessons. Her consistency fluctuated on a regular cycle of three weeks and her performance varied on a normal distribution curve of about 45 minutes duration. I picked the right week and sent her solo exactly 15 minutes into the lesson and the result was one of the most perfect three point landings that I have witnessed, (when not flying the aircraft myself that is). We taxied back to the apron and I congratulated her on her achievement and what an outstanding performance etc. and that now she had ‘become a pilot’ she could return to a happy social circle at the CWA content in a job well done. She said that she always knew she could do it easily and that she intended to continue to PPL with her ‘friends’. Old Bat! She never once said thank you, but then again I suppose you are doing your job properly when the studes think that they have done it all themselves. I went back to full time ag work where I was master of my own cockpit.
I agree that the modern day GAAP environment is a very intense place to attempt to learn to fly from ab-initio. Regional airports that have the facilities but are less encumbered with the traffic, procedures and airspace issues are much better for good initial progress and getting on top of the – Aviate, Navigate, Communicate method, rather than the GAAP Communicate, Navigate, Aviate style
The Moorabbin Mercenaries that arrive in these regional circuits, treat the place like they own it, elbow their way into the circuit, nominate themselves as ‘number One’ when they are completely ignorant of the No-Radio traffic ahead of them, make four or more perfect radio broadcasts, often without listening to anyone else, fly big circuits with looong final legs for T & G landings with a mid field ‘ricochet’ then climb over the top for departure back to the big smoke are not doing their students much good as far as turning out someone that can actually fly, or even speak English for that matter.
Keep yer sausage machines in the cities, we can make real pilots out here and then dip them in the cauldron of GAAP when they have the fundamentals under control and have been into civilized controlled airports a few times ( not a reflection on the GAAP TWR people who have a job I do not envy)
HD
Only two ever got over 40 hrs prior to solo, both were taken over from other instructors who had given up and hand balled them.
Case 1 . Young bloke who just could not do things in the right order, or who would apply the opposite input to what was required. Progress sheets very interesting to read, very keen but seemingly no aptitude at all. Had a very long talk about relative cost for continued progress, and whether he may prefer to by a really nice car and or speed boat etc, maybe even very large cruiser and a Merc to pull it with, but if he really wanted to continue I would try my very best to give him best value for money I could, and maybe even get him solo at which pilont he may wish to accept the solo certificate and then cut his losses and buy a smaller boat with whatever was left of his funds. Told him to go away for a couple of weeks, have a good hard look at it all and come back with the answer (expecting, even hoping, to never hear from him again). He came back keener than ever and we didn’t progress much, despite my trying every passive and active reward scheme and lesson type I could, until I implemented an ‘aversion therapy’ method that involved the fuel dipstick and his knuckles – MIRACULOUS IMPROVEMENT from the first resounding ‘Crack’. Rapid onward progress and ultimately CPL and MECIR! Could hardly believe it myself!! – In general this method is NOT recommended due to potential liability issues and OH&S rules.
Case 2. 80 odd (very odd) year old woman who wanted to learn to fly in her late husband’s tailwheel aircraft. Very fussy and vocally critical old biddy that would only fly with instructor(s) who were family friends. Considered herself genteel and was from landed gentry, the miserable bag. I took her over when her part-time instructor ‘friends’ were utterly exasperated and fed up with her deciding what was going to happen at each lesson. I was not her friend (I was an ag pilot and instructor, I was a tradesman pilot who flew for a living) and I did not need to comply with her directions. I shortened her lessons and observed very carefully her performance and consistency for the next 7 or 8 lessons. Her consistency fluctuated on a regular cycle of three weeks and her performance varied on a normal distribution curve of about 45 minutes duration. I picked the right week and sent her solo exactly 15 minutes into the lesson and the result was one of the most perfect three point landings that I have witnessed, (when not flying the aircraft myself that is). We taxied back to the apron and I congratulated her on her achievement and what an outstanding performance etc. and that now she had ‘become a pilot’ she could return to a happy social circle at the CWA content in a job well done. She said that she always knew she could do it easily and that she intended to continue to PPL with her ‘friends’. Old Bat! She never once said thank you, but then again I suppose you are doing your job properly when the studes think that they have done it all themselves. I went back to full time ag work where I was master of my own cockpit.
I agree that the modern day GAAP environment is a very intense place to attempt to learn to fly from ab-initio. Regional airports that have the facilities but are less encumbered with the traffic, procedures and airspace issues are much better for good initial progress and getting on top of the – Aviate, Navigate, Communicate method, rather than the GAAP Communicate, Navigate, Aviate style
The Moorabbin Mercenaries that arrive in these regional circuits, treat the place like they own it, elbow their way into the circuit, nominate themselves as ‘number One’ when they are completely ignorant of the No-Radio traffic ahead of them, make four or more perfect radio broadcasts, often without listening to anyone else, fly big circuits with looong final legs for T & G landings with a mid field ‘ricochet’ then climb over the top for departure back to the big smoke are not doing their students much good as far as turning out someone that can actually fly, or even speak English for that matter.
Keep yer sausage machines in the cities, we can make real pilots out here and then dip them in the cauldron of GAAP when they have the fundamentals under control and have been into civilized controlled airports a few times ( not a reflection on the GAAP TWR people who have a job I do not envy)
HD
In the military the solution is simple. Scrub him when it is obvious he won't go solo within 12 hours.
We don't want good pilots, but good officers who we can teach to fly
