Massey University Flying School
ive heard to many horror stories about massey to recommend them to be honest, especially from the ATC side trying to get massey aircraft to report their location in reference to the map and not bearing, distance and altitude.
my 2c worth of crap towards the 90% crap.
my 2c worth of crap towards the 90% crap.
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Massey is not the answer.
In New Zealand and Australia I would go to CTC in Hamilton. They train people for European and Asian airlines like Monarch, Easy Jet and Jetstar Pacific. They put people into Eagle Airways (Air New Zealand) as well. They got modern aircraft amd senior staff with airline background. They offer their students to airlines. They are an integrated and modular course provider for the EU JAA approved by the UK CAA. I don't know what the course costs but I have heard they have finance facilities. I don't know their website but if you search for CTC Wings and select the New Zealand option you should get there.
Downburst
Not sure your facts are altogether correct about CTC re the airlines you quote and the availability of finance. They have some modern gear however they are a sausage factory. They are just like Massey without the degree. There are other providers out there who are as good and provide a more rounded pilot.
Not sure your facts are altogether correct about CTC re the airlines you quote and the availability of finance. They have some modern gear however they are a sausage factory. They are just like Massey without the degree. There are other providers out there who are as good and provide a more rounded pilot.
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Originally Posted by 27/09
...provide a more rounded pilot.
It seems that actual pilots are far too free-thinking, self-reliant, wilful and capable to have any place in the modern cockpit...
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As a "well rounded" NZ pilot who went throught the aeroclub training route... and who subsequently ended up flying for one the airlines mentioned previously, I can tell you that CTC is in NO way a sausage factory, it is in point of fact a training provider who tailor their methods from day one to suit an airline SOP driven environment.
They must be doing something right.....as those who graduate have to date had something like a 99% hit rate in being placed with partner airlines.
The people running the place are very very experienced in their chosen field, they are also almost entirely ex airline training/management bods who identified a shortfall in the "well rounded" pilot when it came to flying for an airline.
My take on this is from the perspective of having seen BOTH sides of the argument as well as working alongside and with CTC trained cadets....clearly the critical comments directed towards CTC are based on either a lack of understanding or more likely the typical kiwi tall poppy jealousy type comments reserved for those individuals who have achieved a greater degree of personal success than the critic.
Masseys current failings are well documented, and sadly unchanged in the last 5 years or so IMHO.
They must be doing something right.....as those who graduate have to date had something like a 99% hit rate in being placed with partner airlines.
The people running the place are very very experienced in their chosen field, they are also almost entirely ex airline training/management bods who identified a shortfall in the "well rounded" pilot when it came to flying for an airline.
My take on this is from the perspective of having seen BOTH sides of the argument as well as working alongside and with CTC trained cadets....clearly the critical comments directed towards CTC are based on either a lack of understanding or more likely the typical kiwi tall poppy jealousy type comments reserved for those individuals who have achieved a greater degree of personal success than the critic.
Masseys current failings are well documented, and sadly unchanged in the last 5 years or so IMHO.
Haughtney
My comment was not to put CTC down but to make the point that they are no better than many other training providers out there.
However to comment on a couple of your statements
When you regularly hear CTC aircraft operating and ignoring a critical warning system you have to question this statement. The twins operate for extended periods of time with the gear warning blaring away, it can be clearly heard whenever they transmit. You can't tell me that this is in keeping with good airline SOP's.
There are other things I have observed or have been told about. My comments are certainly not based on a "lack of understanding" as you put it.
The sausage factory comment is a fair reflection.
My comment was not to put CTC down but to make the point that they are no better than many other training providers out there.
However to comment on a couple of your statements
it is in point of fact a training provider who tailor their methods from day one to suit an airline SOP driven environment.
clearly the critical comments directed towards CTC are based on either a lack of understanding
The sausage factory comment is a fair reflection.
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The twins operate for extended periods of time with the gear warning blaring away, it can be clearly heard whenever they transmit. You can't tell me that this is in keeping with good airline SOP's.
As for the sausage factory comment..well..I tend to side with the recruitment and training departments of Easyjet, Monarch, Thomas Cook, Jet 2, British Airways..and a few more besides who all take graduates straight into the right-seat as I suspect they know a great deal more about the subject than you do 27/09
SEAL..the PPrune search function is your friend
I tend to side with the recruitment and training departments of Easyjet, Monarch, Thomas Cook, Jet 2, British Airways..and a few more besides who all take graduates straight into the right-seat
My point was there are others providers as good as CTC.
CTC has an excellent PR machine but the spin that comes from that direction takes a bit of swallowing at times. They are no better than many other training organisations despite what they may believe or tell the rest of the world.
The Gear Warning
All organisations can have areas where they have poor SOP.
CTC hold themselves up as being the best I use this as an example to show that they are just like anyone else.
I consider this to be very poor practice.
It goes whole time they are OEI.
It could be silenced by using a slightly higher zero thrust on the 'dead' engine
They choose to leave the warning going, by doing so are teaching students to ignore an important warning. You can't tell me that this is good SOP.
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They must be doing something right.....as those who graduate have to date had something like a 99% hit rate in being placed with partner airlines.
something similar to what Airways do with the ATC trainees here in NZ...
Like most large training organisations, I hear good and bad things about CTC... Although I do know that a lot of the ill will towards CTC goes back about 5 years or so... before they "moved" to Hamilton
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Are you telling me that they don't take graduates from anywhere else.
CTC IMHO produce a specific product at a very cost effective price.
My point was there are others providers as good as CTC.
CTC has an excellent PR machine but the spin that comes from that direction takes a bit of swallowing at times. They are no better than many other training organisations despite what they may believe or tell the rest of the world.
CTC produce a consistently high standard of graduate that is in demand by their partner airlines. What better marketing tool do you need other than to say..."you'll get a well paid job at the end of your training with us"
The Gear Warning
All organisations can have areas where they have poor SOP.
CTC hold themselves up as being the best I use this as an example to show that they are just like anyone else.
I consider this to be very poor practice.
It goes whole time they are OEI.
It could be silenced by using a slightly higher zero thrust on the 'dead' engine
They choose to leave the warning going, by doing so are teaching students to ignore an important warning. You can't tell me that this is good SOP.
All organisations can have areas where they have poor SOP.
CTC hold themselves up as being the best I use this as an example to show that they are just like anyone else.
I consider this to be very poor practice.
It goes whole time they are OEI.
It could be silenced by using a slightly higher zero thrust on the 'dead' engine
They choose to leave the warning going, by doing so are teaching students to ignore an important warning. You can't tell me that this is good SOP.
An airline I used to work at had an SOP of calling for "flaps in"..rather than "up" as per the Boeing FCTM........which according to the manual is a non-standard/poor SOP as it is outside the manufacturers guidelines, and we aren't talking a little under powered twin, we are talking 180 tonne airframes carrying 270 passengers. Does that make a former employer of mine a poor operator? is it an organisation that encourages recklessness and slip-shod practices?
The answer is..how the hell can you tell from that little snapshot..which is why 27/09 I put it to you...how do YOU know what is being taught to whom and at what stage..if you aren't there.
Is the regulator concerned? Do freshly graduated students go out and ignore warning horns and such? Has CTC a history of safety related violations based on unsafe/unsound teaching methods?
I've had exposure to CTC graduates in the flightdeck, I've acted as a safety pilot whilst they've completed their 6 take-offs and landings in a 757...with 270hrs in their logbooks...
Mayby 27/09 you'd like to qualify your remarks with a little more about your background? because from where I sit...you look like the chips on your shoulders are gonna need surgery to remove.
I thought that the partner airlines 'pre-book' placements... that is to say, they tell CTC "we want X cadets this year"... so CTC accept X number (+ a margin to account for drop-outs etc) of candidates...
Suffice to say, they progress through a selection process and commence training...at some stage later the are offered positions at partner airlines..but only once they pass the selection procedure for that airline.
New kit
I see Massey have an all new G1000 equipped fleet on order:
Massey buys 14 new planes for $8 million - National - NZ Herald News
Massey buys 14 new planes for $8 million
Massey University's aviation school will replace its fleet with 12 single-engine Diamond Aircraft 40 (pictured) and two twin-engine Diamond Aircraft 42 aeroplanes.
12:00PM Monday Mar 09, 2009
Massey University has spent $8m buying 14 new planes - two high-performance twin-engine Diamond Aircraft 42 and 12 single-engine Diamond Aircraft 40 - to replace the aviation school's fleet of Piper Warrior single engine and Piper Seneca twin-engine aircraft.
The school, which flies out of the Milson Flight Systems Centre at Palmerston North Airport, offers degrees in aviation with professional pilot training incorporated.
School general manager Ashok Poduval said Massey would be the first flight training organisation in New Zealand with an entire fleet of training aircraft which had state-of-the-art Garmin 1000 cockpit display systems, which enhanced safety and improved training quality.
"Flying an aircraft today is not merely about 'stick and rudder' skills - it is about managing a technologically advanced machine," Mr Poduval said.
"We are investing resources to keep our students ahead of the rest."
Advanced aviation students at Massey, Brandon James Gedge and Dae Jin Hwang, died when their planes collided at an altitude of 472m near Opiki, southwest of Palmerston North, in February 2006.
The Civil Aviation Authority said the pilots had been unable to see each other because of the planes' inherent blind spots and because for much of the time one was climbing, it was headed directly towards the sun.
The school said the new aircraft would be fitted with Spidertracks, a real time tracking device developed with the aid of Massey University mechatronics graduate James McCarthy.
The device enhanced the safety of students, Mr McCarthy said.
"The trainers can follow the students in real-time and know where they are, wherever they are."
Massey vice-chancellor Steve Maharey said the purchase of the new aircraft reflected the university's major commitment to the school.
"We're looking forward to great things in terms of the programmes we can provide for aviation students both here and around the world."
Four of the aircraft were expected to be delivered at the end of May with the entire new fleet in place by the end of the year.
The planes were manufactured by Diamond Aircraft Industries in Ontario, Canada and distributed by Hawker Pacific.
Senior instructors at the school would undergo training at Diamond Aircraft's factory in Canada over the next three months.
- NZPA
Massey buys 14 new planes for $8 million - National - NZ Herald News
Massey buys 14 new planes for $8 million
Massey University's aviation school will replace its fleet with 12 single-engine Diamond Aircraft 40 (pictured) and two twin-engine Diamond Aircraft 42 aeroplanes.
12:00PM Monday Mar 09, 2009
Massey University has spent $8m buying 14 new planes - two high-performance twin-engine Diamond Aircraft 42 and 12 single-engine Diamond Aircraft 40 - to replace the aviation school's fleet of Piper Warrior single engine and Piper Seneca twin-engine aircraft.
The school, which flies out of the Milson Flight Systems Centre at Palmerston North Airport, offers degrees in aviation with professional pilot training incorporated.
School general manager Ashok Poduval said Massey would be the first flight training organisation in New Zealand with an entire fleet of training aircraft which had state-of-the-art Garmin 1000 cockpit display systems, which enhanced safety and improved training quality.
"Flying an aircraft today is not merely about 'stick and rudder' skills - it is about managing a technologically advanced machine," Mr Poduval said.
"We are investing resources to keep our students ahead of the rest."
Advanced aviation students at Massey, Brandon James Gedge and Dae Jin Hwang, died when their planes collided at an altitude of 472m near Opiki, southwest of Palmerston North, in February 2006.
The Civil Aviation Authority said the pilots had been unable to see each other because of the planes' inherent blind spots and because for much of the time one was climbing, it was headed directly towards the sun.
The school said the new aircraft would be fitted with Spidertracks, a real time tracking device developed with the aid of Massey University mechatronics graduate James McCarthy.
The device enhanced the safety of students, Mr McCarthy said.
"The trainers can follow the students in real-time and know where they are, wherever they are."
Massey vice-chancellor Steve Maharey said the purchase of the new aircraft reflected the university's major commitment to the school.
"We're looking forward to great things in terms of the programmes we can provide for aviation students both here and around the world."
Four of the aircraft were expected to be delivered at the end of May with the entire new fleet in place by the end of the year.
The planes were manufactured by Diamond Aircraft Industries in Ontario, Canada and distributed by Hawker Pacific.
Senior instructors at the school would undergo training at Diamond Aircraft's factory in Canada over the next three months.
- NZPA
oh great, more reliance on the panel in front and not your eyes outside when doing PPL to CPL training, and are those diamond twins the ones with the single throttle with automatic mixture control? or was that diesel only?
those aircraft are really going to help massey students get into the GA scene.
"how do you read these dials? wheres my glass cockpit?"
those aircraft are really going to help massey students get into the GA scene.
"how do you read these dials? wheres my glass cockpit?"
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Haughtey, just like a lot of people on this forum you make a statement and when asked to back up your comments you can not do so.
I'd also like to point you to a particular piece of the Flight Test Standards guide that is for all of NZ by the CAA... Here is the CPL FTSG, read the foreword on page 3.
http://www.caa.govt.nz/pilots/Instru..._Guide_(A).pdf
I'd say we are in more than capable hands. I think part of Massey's rep is due to the fact that they fly with the callsign "Massey XXX" and have aircraft painted with Massey on the side. This makes their aircraft/pilots easily identifiable in the event of an incorrect radio call, incident or whatever the case may be. If you have ZK-XYZ from who knows where, then no one can point a finger at any particular organisation cos they dont know which way to point. The exception being Airways controllers.
Think of it this way, a car runs a red light and collides with another car. It may make the local newspaper, if someone was hurt. If this car that runs a red light happens to be a police car with no lights or sirens, then it will be national news...
I'd also like to point you to a particular piece of the Flight Test Standards guide that is for all of NZ by the CAA... Here is the CPL FTSG, read the foreword on page 3.
http://www.caa.govt.nz/pilots/Instru..._Guide_(A).pdf
I'd say we are in more than capable hands. I think part of Massey's rep is due to the fact that they fly with the callsign "Massey XXX" and have aircraft painted with Massey on the side. This makes their aircraft/pilots easily identifiable in the event of an incorrect radio call, incident or whatever the case may be. If you have ZK-XYZ from who knows where, then no one can point a finger at any particular organisation cos they dont know which way to point. The exception being Airways controllers.
Think of it this way, a car runs a red light and collides with another car. It may make the local newspaper, if someone was hurt. If this car that runs a red light happens to be a police car with no lights or sirens, then it will be national news...
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Haughtey, just like a lot of people on this forum you make a statement and when asked to back up your comments you can not do so.
The Fleet renewal is a step in the right direction.
Steady on there Haughtney old chap. You seem to be taking things a bit personally. I can assure you there are no chips on my shoulders. I have a similar opinion of some other larger schools as I do CTC and that includes Massey. I'm not sure why you are so sensitive about CTC.
My initial post on this thread was to make the point that there are other very good providers out there other than CTC or Massey for that matter, and I expressed the opinion that they are a sausage factory, which they are. They may be good at what they do but they are still a sausage factory.
My initial post on this thread was to make the point that there are other very good providers out there other than CTC or Massey for that matter, and I expressed the opinion that they are a sausage factory, which they are. They may be good at what they do but they are still a sausage factory.
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I was under the understanding that most of the overseas student are on a cadetship scheme. As for the Locals training there, i havent heard or seen alot of them coming through GA in NZ. As sad as it is to say, I think CTC students would have a hard road into GA in NZ for the same reason Massey students do, some people seem to have an attitude (unjustified or not) that they are drop kicks off a sausage line.
From what I have seen CTC is a well run and organised operation who pay there instructors well, this is a strange concept to most NZ schools.
As for student making themselves "famous" around the country, any of you guys hung around Ardmore flying school or Canterbury recently? They are only students after all, we didnt all drop out of our mothers with 10 fingers and toes, holding a pilots licence.
Konev. Give them a little bit of credit, Im sure they can convert to the older dails. Times are changing, glass is the way of the future, Mountain air (Fly my sky) recently put a glass display into one of its peice of crap, turn of the stone-age Islanders. Its cheaper to buy than a full I.F kit, easier to maintain and is TAWs capable. I trained on and operated old school machines in GA with the old dials and steam driven avionics (if you can call it that) When I came into the regionals I had never used an RMI, I found it a bit of effort to convert to EHSI and EADI's. Its the future, get with it.
From what I have seen CTC is a well run and organised operation who pay there instructors well, this is a strange concept to most NZ schools.
As for student making themselves "famous" around the country, any of you guys hung around Ardmore flying school or Canterbury recently? They are only students after all, we didnt all drop out of our mothers with 10 fingers and toes, holding a pilots licence.
those aircraft are really going to help massey students get into the GA scene.