IFR cruising altitude below LSALT in day VMC
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IFR cruising altitude below LSALT in day VMC
Can I fly at an altitude below LSALT in day VMC, when operating under the IFR between two non towered aerodromes 40 NM apart?
G'day all. Just a little confused by the above question.
Reading CAR 178 and Jepps para 3.6.6 on page AU-806 Air Traffic Control section, the answer would be YES.
But reading Jepps para 1.6 on page AU-15 Terminal section and Jepps para 3.16 on page AU-23 Terminal section, I cannot conduct a Visual Approach from an altitude below LSALT, thus I must climb to LSALT, making the answer NO.
Thoughts?
G'day all. Just a little confused by the above question.
Reading CAR 178 and Jepps para 3.6.6 on page AU-806 Air Traffic Control section, the answer would be YES.
But reading Jepps para 1.6 on page AU-15 Terminal section and Jepps para 3.16 on page AU-23 Terminal section, I cannot conduct a Visual Approach from an altitude below LSALT, thus I must climb to LSALT, making the answer NO.
Thoughts?
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If you are visual by day & thus can ensure your own terrain separation, you can get to the circling area however you please!
To put the answer more into the context that I think you were hoping for; you could continue to a point where the critical obstacle has been passed and revise your LSALT so that it is sufficiently lower, or alternatively, continue until you are close enough to the destination such that you are above the appropriate MSA/DME/GPS step as per para 3.16. Either of these should enable you to conduct a visual approach at most fields IAW the above para.
Hope that helps.
To put the answer more into the context that I think you were hoping for; you could continue to a point where the critical obstacle has been passed and revise your LSALT so that it is sufficiently lower, or alternatively, continue until you are close enough to the destination such that you are above the appropriate MSA/DME/GPS step as per para 3.16. Either of these should enable you to conduct a visual approach at most fields IAW the above para.
Hope that helps.
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visual by day
if you're OCTA and visual by day then all you ultimately need to do is meet the VFR height requirements, i.e. 500ft AGL or 1000ft over populated places, racecourses and all that hoo hah. A good example would be flying over some high terrain in an aircraft without ice protection and getting as low as possible (visually) to avoid the freezing level.
On a good day you can often see a metro freighter swing by Byron Bay lighthouse at 500ft going from Ballina to the Gold Coast. Just ask ATC for amended tracking "500ft over water" and they'll tell you "no IFR traffic, contact GC tower for a clearance at x DME." Just keep an eye out for those kite surfers!
On a good day you can often see a metro freighter swing by Byron Bay lighthouse at 500ft going from Ballina to the Gold Coast. Just ask ATC for amended tracking "500ft over water" and they'll tell you "no IFR traffic, contact GC tower for a clearance at x DME." Just keep an eye out for those kite surfers!
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Jepps para 1.6 on page AU-15 Terminal section
INSTRUMENT APPROACH/TAKEOFF PROCEDURERS
and Jepps para 3.16 on page AU-23 Terminal section
Subject to the requirements of visual circling, missed approach and visual segments paragraphs above, the pilot need not commence or may discontinue the approved instrument procedure to that aerodrome blah blah blah.........
neither of the above two refer to what you are eluding to doing....
and if you are wondering about the remark of a 'visual segment' in the above, it only refers to a visual segment that is part of a published instrument approach. Not tracking in VMC. You will find that in Terminal AU-23 Para 3.15 (right above where you are getting yourself confused)
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The Visual Approach requirement from LSALT assumes you have descended in IMC, either way unless you have to go IFR just go VFR, if IFR is required then I would say its no problem if you have VMC conditions. Sometimes you need to take all the regulations into account but at the same time act sensibly, if it still exists! hehe oh yeah someone said common sense already! Unfortunately in our current society common sense gets commonly lost in a plethora of Certain Regulatory Authority Procedures. Otherwise known as CRAP!
Unfortunately in our current society common sense gets commonly lost in a plethora of Certain Regulatory Authority Procedures. Otherwise known as CRAP!
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Can I fly at an altitude below LSALT in day VMC, when operating under the IFR between two non towered aerodromes 40 NM apart?
You need to take timeout sometimes to take in the view!
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GBO
I possibly could have been more constructive in my first post. I am an AIP man myself,
ENR 11.6.5 Minimum Altitude requirements. During the conduct of a visual approach, a pilot must descend as necessary to:
a. by day:
(1) for an IFR flight, remain not less than 500ft above the lower limit of the CTA (not applicable)
(2) for IFR and VFR flights, operate not below the lowest altitude permissible for VFR flight (CAR 157)
Therefore the only requirement when OCTA (as stated by roger ramjet) is VFR height (500 or 1000) until circling area, or 5nm aligned (7 for an ILS) blah blah blah.....
I possibly could have been more constructive in my first post. I am an AIP man myself,
ENR 11.6.5 Minimum Altitude requirements. During the conduct of a visual approach, a pilot must descend as necessary to:
a. by day:
(1) for an IFR flight, remain not less than 500ft above the lower limit of the CTA (not applicable)
(2) for IFR and VFR flights, operate not below the lowest altitude permissible for VFR flight (CAR 157)
Therefore the only requirement when OCTA (as stated by roger ramjet) is VFR height (500 or 1000) until circling area, or 5nm aligned (7 for an ILS) blah blah blah.....
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The question is: Can I fly at an altitude below LSALT in day VMC, when operating under the IFR between two non towered aerodromes 40 NM apart?
My question is: How can you fly under the IFR below the LSALT between two airports 40nm apart?
I can understand it if you are a P3 Orion with a search radar and two navigators intending to fly over the ocean but needing to leave Edinburgh in the pouring rain and arrive in Townsville in a thunderstorm, but flying from WoopWoop1 to WoopWoop2.....I don't get it.
My question is: How can you fly under the IFR below the LSALT between two airports 40nm apart?
I can understand it if you are a P3 Orion with a search radar and two navigators intending to fly over the ocean but needing to leave Edinburgh in the pouring rain and arrive in Townsville in a thunderstorm, but flying from WoopWoop1 to WoopWoop2.....I don't get it.
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I think the point being made here is if you are below LSAlt (and not complying with a visual departure or approach procedure as specified in Term), then you are by definition flying under the Visual Flight Rules (which require VMC). You are no longer flying under the Instrument Flight Rules, as those rules require you to be above a LSAlt.
In the 40 nm example you are covered by the fact that you can descent below LSAlt within 30nm of an aerodrome and can therefore be considered to be conducting visual departure/arrival under the IFR.
If you're IFR - you have to fly according to the IFR. If you want to admire the view or get a bit lower, then by definition your are flying under the VFR.
In the 40 nm example you are covered by the fact that you can descent below LSAlt within 30nm of an aerodrome and can therefore be considered to be conducting visual departure/arrival under the IFR.
If you're IFR - you have to fly according to the IFR. If you want to admire the view or get a bit lower, then by definition your are flying under the VFR.
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You are no longer flying under the Instrument Flight Rules, as those rules require you to be above a LSAlt.
We (Mil) regularly operate IFR at 250ft AGL without any problems. Reporting Scheds for SARWATCH and stick to your flight plan. Although this might be a special Mil exception.
Jepp Climb and Cruise 3.6.6
An aircraft must not be flown under the IFR lower than the published lowest safe altitude .................blah blah ,or except during VMC by day (CAR 178 refers).
All you need to do is tell ATC your tracking point A to point B visual. SAR watch trafic etc will still be provided.
An aircraft must not be flown under the IFR lower than the published lowest safe altitude .................blah blah ,or except during VMC by day (CAR 178 refers).
All you need to do is tell ATC your tracking point A to point B visual. SAR watch trafic etc will still be provided.
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Quote:
Can I fly at an altitude below LSALT in day VMC, when operating under the IFR between two non towered aerodromes 40 NM apart?
You can and you should, whenever the weather conditions permit!
You need to take timeout sometimes to take in the view!
Can I fly at an altitude below LSALT in day VMC, when operating under the IFR between two non towered aerodromes 40 NM apart?
You can and you should, whenever the weather conditions permit!
You need to take timeout sometimes to take in the view!
For fecks sake guys, what is so difficult here? Why must we reduce a simple question to something worthy of a High Court appeal?
Every now and again I have a clinic run that goes to two communities that are 23nm apart. The whole flight is done on an IFR plan, but the departure report (through Flightwatch on HF
) advises that the flight will be proceeding visually at a VFR altitude. All other radio calls are as for an IFR flight. Simple adaptation to avoid an unwanted climb to altitude.
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You can do it
From the AIP's (GEN section):
An aircraft must not be flown under the IFR, lower than the
published lowest safe altitude or the lowest safe altitude calculated
in accordance with this section, except when being assigned
levels in accordance with ATS surveillance service terrain
clearance procedures or when being flown in accordance with a
published DME arrival, instrument approach or holding procedure,
or except when necessary during climb after departure from an
aerodrome, or except during VMC by day (CAR 178 refers).
Therefore in your example GBO you can fly below LSALT.
BOK
An aircraft must not be flown under the IFR, lower than the
published lowest safe altitude or the lowest safe altitude calculated
in accordance with this section, except when being assigned
levels in accordance with ATS surveillance service terrain
clearance procedures or when being flown in accordance with a
published DME arrival, instrument approach or holding procedure,
or except when necessary during climb after departure from an
aerodrome, or except during VMC by day (CAR 178 refers).
Therefore in your example GBO you can fly below LSALT.
BOK
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Legman/BOK
Was aware that obviuosly IMC/night you must be above an LSALT/DME/GPS step, etc for IFR when IMC.
Me thinks Icarus53 didn't RTFQ.
Which clearly asked about the day VMC case.
Was aware that obviuosly IMC/night you must be above an LSALT/DME/GPS step, etc for IFR when IMC.
Me thinks Icarus53 didn't RTFQ.
You are no longer flying under the Instrument Flight Rules, as those rules require you to be above a LSAlt.