Inverloch 337 Report
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No Real Answers
I whole-heartedly agree that the best "first move", when the weather is getting a bit marginal is to slow down, stick out some flap and give yourself some time, give yourself a chance to see and think.
Simple mathematics and the old "V" squared rule applies all of the time in our game and that includes reducing our survivability chances at the same rate if it does all turn to putty. Every 10 knots you add to your speed reduces your survivability chances by 100 fold if you are unlucky enough to hit something.
Having said that we recently saw an instrument rated Aussie with 12,000 plus hours in the book take out himself and all but one of his pax in a situation that appears very much to be a classic VFR in IMC CFIT in British Columbia. Please try and learn from his mistake guys and girls.
Reality, I guess is, that we as humans are complicated creatures and we certainly are bloddy slow learners but one thing that Bob Tait did etch in my brain in indellible ink was the "V" squared rule and I wonder how many other schools really make the point.
In the GA commercial realm I suspect there are at least 2 combined forces in play; the students that didn't listen too well, they just want hours and know they are bullet-proof anyway, and quite probably employers, inadvertantly or otherwise are applying too much pressure to kids.
Ice
Simple mathematics and the old "V" squared rule applies all of the time in our game and that includes reducing our survivability chances at the same rate if it does all turn to putty. Every 10 knots you add to your speed reduces your survivability chances by 100 fold if you are unlucky enough to hit something.
Having said that we recently saw an instrument rated Aussie with 12,000 plus hours in the book take out himself and all but one of his pax in a situation that appears very much to be a classic VFR in IMC CFIT in British Columbia. Please try and learn from his mistake guys and girls.
Reality, I guess is, that we as humans are complicated creatures and we certainly are bloddy slow learners but one thing that Bob Tait did etch in my brain in indellible ink was the "V" squared rule and I wonder how many other schools really make the point.
In the GA commercial realm I suspect there are at least 2 combined forces in play; the students that didn't listen too well, they just want hours and know they are bullet-proof anyway, and quite probably employers, inadvertantly or otherwise are applying too much pressure to kids.
Ice
First comment is that loss of situational awareness over water is a well known phenomenon, you can even get it taking off from Point Cook if its a grey winter day with no wind and no horizon.
Second is that the weather near the Prom and Liptrap is different, the low cloud of which you speak is "sea wrack', and you can get it anywhere near the sea, but it sort of jumps out at you down there, as I found once on a "Scenic" around Wilsons Promontory.
As for holding an IFR ticket, that requires a whole new layer of commitment in my opinion, and I agree that anything twin engined need an IFR pilot. Cirrus is maybe a grey area (no pun intended).
As for increasing the amount of IFR training for us PPL's, there is a school of thought that says a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, and too much training could entice some people into pushing on when they should turn back...
A tragedy all the same.
Second is that the weather near the Prom and Liptrap is different, the low cloud of which you speak is "sea wrack', and you can get it anywhere near the sea, but it sort of jumps out at you down there, as I found once on a "Scenic" around Wilsons Promontory.
As for holding an IFR ticket, that requires a whole new layer of commitment in my opinion, and I agree that anything twin engined need an IFR pilot. Cirrus is maybe a grey area (no pun intended).
As for increasing the amount of IFR training for us PPL's, there is a school of thought that says a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, and too much training could entice some people into pushing on when they should turn back...
A tragedy all the same.
As for increasing the amount of IFR training for us PPL's, there is a school of thought that says a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, and too much training could entice some people into pushing on when they should turn back...
By the time I did my training it had been increased to 5 hours for a PPL by adding and additional 2 hours IF training as "Nav 5". My understanding is that that came about as a response to an increase in "continued flight by VFR pilots into non-VFR conditions" incidents.
Now it is 2 hours total for a PPL!
Does anyone recall when that change came about and what was the rationale behind it?
What are the IF requirements for a CPL these days? Used to be that a Ngt VMC rating was a prerequisite for a CPL, but I understand that is no longer the case.
I don't have any figures but my perception is that these "continued flight into IMC" incidents are on the increase (again ?).
Dr
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For a cpl these days all you need is 10hrs IF, although you'd prolly be silly not to consider doing the 10hr night rating before looking for that first job
I guess adding extra IF training thru PVT & onward to CPL would enhance ones chances of survival should they become disorientated. But there has been a zillion books written on loss of control due not believing yr instruments. There's been many IF rated pilots that simply (for want of a better word) flew into the ground in a perfectly serviceable A/C beacuse more than likely they didn't want to react to what their instruments where telling them. Extra IF training would help, but will it stop this from happening again? nope. This tragic event was a culmination of serveal factors but what ultimately took their lives was insufficient ALT to correct loss of control.
Wmk
Wmk
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Now it is 2 hours total for a PPL!
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No matter how much IF training you give a person, unless they keep current, they will never maintain proficiency. The VFR into IFR into terrain accident has been with us since aviation began. Its the mind set (education)to be able to judge the conditions and turn back when VMC doesn't exist.
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Governments can help.
Government agencies can help make it safer by reducing the ammount of sky that is restricted or military airspace and making the controlled airspace more user friendly.
VFR aircraft pilots are faced with very restricted routes unless they are prepared to make thier flying much more complex. I remember when the western lane of entry to Moorabbin had an upper limit of 2000ft, and there was a restricted area with an upper limit of 1700ft. So we had two way traffic going through a 300 ft slot.
More class E airspace might help, and simplification of everything is urgently needed. Sure you can get clearences, but many will not as they have a mindset that controlled airspace is only for the sacred airline and military aircraft and if you fly there you have to be a superman. This mindset must change to reduce the ammount of scudrunning that happens. Dangerous scudrunning is often considered preferable to getting a clearance to fly in controlled airspace.
We should concentrate on reducing the restricted airspace and also making it more friendly so that the negative mindset changes. And the scudrunning reduces.
But our government agencies will not. They cannot make money out of it.
VFR aircraft pilots are faced with very restricted routes unless they are prepared to make thier flying much more complex. I remember when the western lane of entry to Moorabbin had an upper limit of 2000ft, and there was a restricted area with an upper limit of 1700ft. So we had two way traffic going through a 300 ft slot.
More class E airspace might help, and simplification of everything is urgently needed. Sure you can get clearences, but many will not as they have a mindset that controlled airspace is only for the sacred airline and military aircraft and if you fly there you have to be a superman. This mindset must change to reduce the ammount of scudrunning that happens. Dangerous scudrunning is often considered preferable to getting a clearance to fly in controlled airspace.
We should concentrate on reducing the restricted airspace and also making it more friendly so that the negative mindset changes. And the scudrunning reduces.
But our government agencies will not. They cannot make money out of it.
I would have thought currency might have the main issue plus the pressures of flying unfamiliar aircraft.
Could be another case of the old quick endorsement done by the ace instructor with 3/10ths of **** all experience on the type and all done within the YMMB circuit area?
The old C337 is a pretty stable beast, put out the first stage of flap and the wheels and you slow it back to a C172 speed and stooge along okay.
A couple of posters on this forum have a fair bit of time in C337's in bad weather conditions and operating low level over Bass Strait.
Could be another case of the old quick endorsement done by the ace instructor with 3/10ths of **** all experience on the type and all done within the YMMB circuit area?
The old C337 is a pretty stable beast, put out the first stage of flap and the wheels and you slow it back to a C172 speed and stooge along okay.
A couple of posters on this forum have a fair bit of time in C337's in bad weather conditions and operating low level over Bass Strait.
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No matter what level of experience you have you don't have many options at 50 ft off the ocean.
Yet again this crash was 100% avoidable by heading inland and away from the sea fog as there was no requirement to be in that location for the purposes of the trip. That clearly didn't happen and the ultimate price was paid.
Perhaps the Human Factors training can't come soon enough.
Yet again this crash was 100% avoidable by heading inland and away from the sea fog as there was no requirement to be in that location for the purposes of the trip. That clearly didn't happen and the ultimate price was paid.
Perhaps the Human Factors training can't come soon enough.
Bugsmasherdriverandjediknite
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I seem to remember if you were slow in the pushimnpullyu, and you threw the gear out it was worth nearly ten knots with them big clamshell doors in the breeze. certainly not what you would want when your in the shnot,low and already slow while turning steeply. quite eye opening when unfamiliar with the type.
To me, this is the key if ya plan a little coastal scud running -
From the investigation - Weather-related risk management tools. (extracts, pp 11, 12)
- make decisions early - when in doubt, turn about
- slow the aircraft down in precautionary mode to give more time and reduce the radius of turn
When flying over water, always keep the shoreline in sight, but leave yourself enough room to make a I80-degree turn toward it if the visibility ahead of you drops below minimums. By turning toward the shore, you always will have a visual reference to help you maintain altitude. If you turn away from the shoreline, you'll instantly be confronted with a featureless, gray void. You'll have nothing by which to judge your altitude or the airplane's attitude.
From the investigation - Weather-related risk management tools. (extracts, pp 11, 12)
- make decisions early - when in doubt, turn about
- slow the aircraft down in precautionary mode to give more time and reduce the radius of turn
When flying over water, always keep the shoreline in sight, but leave yourself enough room to make a I80-degree turn toward it if the visibility ahead of you drops below minimums. By turning toward the shore, you always will have a visual reference to help you maintain altitude. If you turn away from the shoreline, you'll instantly be confronted with a featureless, gray void. You'll have nothing by which to judge your altitude or the airplane's attitude.
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Why was he there?
This pilot obviously thought there was a reason to be scud running along the coast.
I believe the australian system encourages scud running by making the alternatives complex and appearing to be difficult. We are taught this from the beginning. The industry fiercely objected to the PIFR.
It is hard to do much flying in the australian system without being exposed to scud running, and this can easily become a habbit. I believe it does very often become a normal practise.
It appears that this pilot had spent 8.3 hours in that aircraft, most of which was endorsement training. I would not call that a "quickie" endorsement,
I believe the australian system encourages scud running by making the alternatives complex and appearing to be difficult. We are taught this from the beginning. The industry fiercely objected to the PIFR.
It is hard to do much flying in the australian system without being exposed to scud running, and this can easily become a habbit. I believe it does very often become a normal practise.
It appears that this pilot had spent 8.3 hours in that aircraft, most of which was endorsement training. I would not call that a "quickie" endorsement,
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I have reproduced the complete text of the section of C. Marin Faure's book 'Flying a Floatplane' (3rd edition) below that the ATSB report extracted it's 'turn towards land' from. I have added emphasis to a number of statements which I beleive resulted in the loss of the author's context as a result of short extract used by the ATSB.
Always fly within reach of a body of water large enough to land on. the protected waters of Washington's Puget Sound, the Inside Passage to Alaska, and the lake country of northern Minnesota, Manitoba, Ontario, and Quebec are examples of areas where your flight will probably carry you over more water than land. The advantage of being over or near water is that should the ceiling really start coming down, you'll be able to land quickly and wait until the situation improves. Obviously, the water you're flying over will have to be smooth enough to land on. Water covered with swells or the open ocean are as inhospitable to your floatplane as dry land, and you should think twice before attempting to cross them in marginal weather. The greatest hindrance to visibility along the coasts of British Columbia and southeast Alaska is fog. Fortunately, the presence of fog usually indicates an absence of wind, so the water is generally smooth enough to land on, unless it's exposed to ocean swells. Don't fly over unfamiliar territory in low weather conditions. Patches of fog or mist can hide the terrain around you, and if you don't have a good mental picture of the area, you can easily become disoriented. When flying over water, always keep the shoreline in sight, but leave yourself enough 'room to make a l80-degree turn toward it if the visibility ahead of you drops below minimums. By turning toward the shore, you always will have a visual reference to help you maintain altitude. If you turn away from the shoreline, you'll instantly be confronted with a featureless, gray void. You'll have nothing by which to judge- your altitude or the airplane's attitude. The chances are good that you'll stall the plane or enter a spiral dive, but you'll have no idea what's happening until a wall of water suddenly explodes through the windshield.
If the visibility drops to less than two miles, slow down. Give yourself an additional margin above a stall by lowering the flaps to their normal takeoff position, and slow-flying along the shore. By reducing your speed, you'll have time to react if a rocky bluff suddenly looms out of the mist ahead of you or if you see that you're going to fly into a fog bank.
A very dangerous weather condition is created when rain starts falling in an area where the temperature and dewpoint are very close together. A mile or so in front of you, the rain might obscure the horizon, but you'll have no problem following the shoreline beside your airplane. The danger occurs when fog forms in the rain. The fog up ahead will look just like the rain, so you'll have no idea it's there. Then, bang! You'll be in it, and your visibility will drop instantly to zero. The shoreline you've been following will disappear, and you'll have no visual reference to help you turn the plane around. If the atmospheric conditions along your route are conducive to weather like this, be very, very careful. It might be better not to fly at all.
Low-ceiling weather tends to concentrate air traffic, so turn the landing lights on and keep a sharp eye out for other aircraft. You never know when someone might come barreling out of the mist toward you, so be prepared to take evasive action if another airplane should suddenly appear.
Keep an eye on what's going on behind you. I can't imagine a worse situation than being forced to turn around by fog or low clouds, only to find that it's socked in behind you, too. If you do find yourself in this situation, the best solution is to pull the power off and land, assuming the water beneath you will permit this. Once you're safely on the water, you can beach the plane and wait for the weather to improve, or you can shut the engine down and drift. Be careful that you don't drift right along with the bad weather.
If your problem is a local fog bank, and you know there is better weather on the other side, you can land and taxi your plane until the visibility improves to the point where you can take to the air once again; however, keep an eye on the engine temperature gauges. Some planes will overheat if they're taxied for a long time, so you might have to shut down occasionally to let the engine cool off. Also keep in mind that taxiing for long distances on the water will throw a monkey wrench into your fuel consumption calculations, and you might need to refuel sooner than you had planned. Unless the conditions are absolutely ideal, don't taxi on the step. You won't be able to stop or turn quickly enough to avoid a collision if a boat or a floating log appears suddenly in your path. If you do step-taxi, watch those temperature gauges.
If the water is too rough for a safe landing and you can't go back, the next alternative is to climb. As long as there is fuel in its tanks, your floatplane is safest in the air. If you've received sufficient training to allow you to climb, cruise, turn, and descend on instruments, you might be able to climb above the fog or low clouds to better visibility above. Once you're there, try to establish contact with a flight service station or an air route traffic control center for assistance in establishing your position and setting a course for an area with better visibility. This is an emergency situation, and it emphasizes the importance of sticking to familiar territory when flying in low weather. If you don't know exactly where you are, and you don't have a good mental picture of the terrain that surrounds you, you could climb blindly ahead into the side of a hill. You'd be better off trying to put the airplane d.own in the fog even if the water is rough. Your chances of surviving a capsizing are better than your chances of surviving a head-on collision with a mountain.
Offshore I have experienced conditions where there is no definite horizon and the sky blends into the ocean even though it is legally VMC. On one occassion that stands out there was 15km+ visibility due haze and over a 3,000 foot cloud base in the early afternoon but no horizon.
Glassy water, certain rain sizes falling on water can deceive even experienced seaplane pilots in regard to both height perception and aircraft attitude (interference with ability to discern a horizon).
The risk of disorientation is high when scud running over water, particularly where the pilot does not have the experience or training to recognise some of the unique illusions and threats that this practice creates.
FLYING FLOATS IN LOW WEATHER
Low-weather flying, or "scud running," is as potentially dangerous in a floatplane as it is in a landplane. Continued flight into marginal VFR or IFR weather conditions is the single greatest cause of general aviation accidents. Never allow yourself to be pressured into flying in weather you're not sure you can handle; however, there are times when low-weather flying can be accomplished in relative safety if you follow a few basic guidelines(Fig. 21-10). Always fly within reach of a body of water large enough to land on. the protected waters of Washington's Puget Sound, the Inside Passage to Alaska, and the lake country of northern Minnesota, Manitoba, Ontario, and Quebec are examples of areas where your flight will probably carry you over more water than land. The advantage of being over or near water is that should the ceiling really start coming down, you'll be able to land quickly and wait until the situation improves. Obviously, the water you're flying over will have to be smooth enough to land on. Water covered with swells or the open ocean are as inhospitable to your floatplane as dry land, and you should think twice before attempting to cross them in marginal weather. The greatest hindrance to visibility along the coasts of British Columbia and southeast Alaska is fog. Fortunately, the presence of fog usually indicates an absence of wind, so the water is generally smooth enough to land on, unless it's exposed to ocean swells. Don't fly over unfamiliar territory in low weather conditions. Patches of fog or mist can hide the terrain around you, and if you don't have a good mental picture of the area, you can easily become disoriented. When flying over water, always keep the shoreline in sight, but leave yourself enough 'room to make a l80-degree turn toward it if the visibility ahead of you drops below minimums. By turning toward the shore, you always will have a visual reference to help you maintain altitude. If you turn away from the shoreline, you'll instantly be confronted with a featureless, gray void. You'll have nothing by which to judge- your altitude or the airplane's attitude. The chances are good that you'll stall the plane or enter a spiral dive, but you'll have no idea what's happening until a wall of water suddenly explodes through the windshield.
If the visibility drops to less than two miles, slow down. Give yourself an additional margin above a stall by lowering the flaps to their normal takeoff position, and slow-flying along the shore. By reducing your speed, you'll have time to react if a rocky bluff suddenly looms out of the mist ahead of you or if you see that you're going to fly into a fog bank.
A very dangerous weather condition is created when rain starts falling in an area where the temperature and dewpoint are very close together. A mile or so in front of you, the rain might obscure the horizon, but you'll have no problem following the shoreline beside your airplane. The danger occurs when fog forms in the rain. The fog up ahead will look just like the rain, so you'll have no idea it's there. Then, bang! You'll be in it, and your visibility will drop instantly to zero. The shoreline you've been following will disappear, and you'll have no visual reference to help you turn the plane around. If the atmospheric conditions along your route are conducive to weather like this, be very, very careful. It might be better not to fly at all.
Low-ceiling weather tends to concentrate air traffic, so turn the landing lights on and keep a sharp eye out for other aircraft. You never know when someone might come barreling out of the mist toward you, so be prepared to take evasive action if another airplane should suddenly appear.
Keep an eye on what's going on behind you. I can't imagine a worse situation than being forced to turn around by fog or low clouds, only to find that it's socked in behind you, too. If you do find yourself in this situation, the best solution is to pull the power off and land, assuming the water beneath you will permit this. Once you're safely on the water, you can beach the plane and wait for the weather to improve, or you can shut the engine down and drift. Be careful that you don't drift right along with the bad weather.
If your problem is a local fog bank, and you know there is better weather on the other side, you can land and taxi your plane until the visibility improves to the point where you can take to the air once again; however, keep an eye on the engine temperature gauges. Some planes will overheat if they're taxied for a long time, so you might have to shut down occasionally to let the engine cool off. Also keep in mind that taxiing for long distances on the water will throw a monkey wrench into your fuel consumption calculations, and you might need to refuel sooner than you had planned. Unless the conditions are absolutely ideal, don't taxi on the step. You won't be able to stop or turn quickly enough to avoid a collision if a boat or a floating log appears suddenly in your path. If you do step-taxi, watch those temperature gauges.
If the water is too rough for a safe landing and you can't go back, the next alternative is to climb. As long as there is fuel in its tanks, your floatplane is safest in the air. If you've received sufficient training to allow you to climb, cruise, turn, and descend on instruments, you might be able to climb above the fog or low clouds to better visibility above. Once you're there, try to establish contact with a flight service station or an air route traffic control center for assistance in establishing your position and setting a course for an area with better visibility. This is an emergency situation, and it emphasizes the importance of sticking to familiar territory when flying in low weather. If you don't know exactly where you are, and you don't have a good mental picture of the terrain that surrounds you, you could climb blindly ahead into the side of a hill. You'd be better off trying to put the airplane d.own in the fog even if the water is rough. Your chances of surviving a capsizing are better than your chances of surviving a head-on collision with a mountain.
Glassy water, certain rain sizes falling on water can deceive even experienced seaplane pilots in regard to both height perception and aircraft attitude (interference with ability to discern a horizon).
The risk of disorientation is high when scud running over water, particularly where the pilot does not have the experience or training to recognise some of the unique illusions and threats that this practice creates.
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If you turn away from the shoreline, you'll instantly be confronted with a featureless, gray void. You'll have nothing by which to judge your altitude or the airplane's attitude.
If you've received sufficient training to allow you to climb, cruise, turn, and descend on instruments, you might be able to climb above the fog or low clouds to better visibility above. Once you're there, try to establish contact with a flight service station or an air route traffic control center for assistance in establishing your position and setting a course for an area with better visibility.
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IFR flying too hard?
I knew two businessmen who bought new, twin engined IFR equipped aircraft. Both died flying VFR in bad weather.
The third, a doctor used to fly his turbo mooney to a remote town to do clincs, and fly home at night. A number of times I urgrd him to get an instrument rating. His reply was he could not spend the time to do it. Fortunately he quit flying and sold his aircraft. He is still with us.
We make instrument flying and controlled airspace flying appear to be far too hard, and this contributes to the number of CFIT's.
I know of an organisattion that has a simulator that just does not get used. Staff just have to spend months writing manuals and ammending things, and have given up. It would be much better if they could use this life saving equipment.
The third, a doctor used to fly his turbo mooney to a remote town to do clincs, and fly home at night. A number of times I urgrd him to get an instrument rating. His reply was he could not spend the time to do it. Fortunately he quit flying and sold his aircraft. He is still with us.
We make instrument flying and controlled airspace flying appear to be far too hard, and this contributes to the number of CFIT's.
I know of an organisattion that has a simulator that just does not get used. Staff just have to spend months writing manuals and ammending things, and have given up. It would be much better if they could use this life saving equipment.
'CTE' Agree there
. We can all bounce off the walls with ideas, reasons etc as to why this pilot & others like him got very dead but from years of flying IF in lousy wx you need one basic principle to remain alive. I believe it's not so much the training, it's not so much the cost either it's not even the recency as in how current one is it's the very thing that truely saves people in this instance where one gets caught, discipline, without it all the training, money & recency means zip! You can train anybody given enough time/money to obtain a rating but if they don't have either the discipline or the right attitude then the only 'attitude' they will end up having is an inverted one! Discipline also goes with the VFR pilot who doesn't allow himself to get in such an ugly situation.
Wmk2
. We can all bounce off the walls with ideas, reasons etc as to why this pilot & others like him got very dead but from years of flying IF in lousy wx you need one basic principle to remain alive. I believe it's not so much the training, it's not so much the cost either it's not even the recency as in how current one is it's the very thing that truely saves people in this instance where one gets caught, discipline, without it all the training, money & recency means zip! You can train anybody given enough time/money to obtain a rating but if they don't have either the discipline or the right attitude then the only 'attitude' they will end up having is an inverted one! Discipline also goes with the VFR pilot who doesn't allow himself to get in such an ugly situation. Wmk2
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If you turn away from the shoreline, you'll instantly be confronted with a featureless, gray void. You'll have nothing by which to judge your altitude or the airplane's attitude.
Except an AI and Altimeter.
I think Wally is spot on about discipline - equally important for all pilots whether VFR or IFR. IMHO it is critical not to keep pushing on until you only have one option left - because if you lose that one you're probably
.
