Erickson Skycranes - Camden

[dogcharlietree]

Hi guys. Three erickson skycrane's just passed over Camden heading south-west at 1:45pm today. Any further info?

[Teal]

I'd be guessing they are en-route to Essendon Airport. From this week, most of Victoria is now officially in a Declared Fire Danger Period till 1 May 2009.

[Buster Hyman]

They'll be at Essendon between 0900-1100 this Saturday for a warm & fuzzy photo session with our Brigade tanker actually (see the photo thread in JB). Might even get down there myself for the photo op....have to speak to my agent first of course!

[Trev007]

More of our tax money and jobs going overseas !!
HUGE outlay of $ to put out the political fires ,the Aircrane PR machine has done a job on the Aust public now we cant be without them

[morno]

What alternative do you suggest?

[Disco Stu]

Trev007

You are welcome to set up a business operating the Skycrane here in Oz. I suppose summer here and winter making a killing in the Northern Hemisphere.

Just don't forget to allow copius dollars, 5 times the time you 'think' it will take and then go ahead and source & obtain the airframes/spares/engineers/pilot people. Oh and don't forget to embark on the most satisfying exercise of the lot, get them Skycranes on the Aussie VH register. Good Luck!

Having settled into a comfy chair I am ready to watch how you go.

DS

[Stretch06]

Whilst flying Thursday morning, I followed the formation of 3 of them into Canberra.

They parked on the RAAF side of the airport and it looked like there was a media / pollies photoshoot going on....

[chiefedge]

Refuelled in Canberra to an audience of interested airport staffers.
2 overnighted at Albury and hit Essendon this morning. 1 carried on and landed at Essendon last night.

[Clearedtoreenter]

They parked on the RAAF side of the airport and it looked like there was a media / pollies photoshoot going on....

That explains it. They are in fact K07's latest cost cutting initiative. They are not for fire fighting but are a much more efficient way of distributing $100 notes in the next economic pump priming exercise.

[FoxtrotAlpha18]

They parked on the RAAF side of the airport ...

Just a bit of clarification on this statement...there is NO RAAF side of YSCB anymore.

The whole airport has been privatised, and the ADF leases the 'Defence Establishment' corner of the ramp for the 34SQN hangar, air movements terminal and associated ramp frontage.

The rest is ramp space available to all visiting aircraft.

[Squeaks]

Trev007 makes a good point, although not necessarily about the Aircranes which are now locked in such that it would be brave Pollie to refuse to renew their contract

Our Government departments (primarily the DSE, who apparently invented fire) have steadfastly failed to support local operators, thus denying them any returns on investment for aviation fire fighting assets. Added to this restriction is the refusal of the FAA and the USFS to allow any non N reg to operate on the CONUS on fire ops, and our weak willed pollies who allow N reg (and others) to operate here with almost impunity, thus denying local operators work.

This flows on to the work force, thus restricting jobs and opportunities for aircrew, engineers, and all associated support companies. John McDermott and his 214B's spring to mind; completely locked out of Victorian fire ops because of one bl**dy minded DSE air desk moron with a small man's inferiority complex

[Allan L]

I don't know the case you quote, so can't comment on that.

However, in so far as using OZ equipment & personnel: I'm looking at the Victorian list of contract aircraft for the 08/09 fire season and I only see 3 'C' regos (1 helo and 2 off S61N) and 2 'N' regos (the 2 S64 aircranes).

But I do see heaps of 'VH'.

In fact 14 VH helos & 12 VH SEATS, plus a few other fixed wings of VH regn (IR line scan & obs).

PS. The Victorian State Aircraft Unit isn't just a DSE operation - it's actually a DSE-CFA joint facility! And it provides services to other depts as well (eg DPI for locust spraying).

PPS. As well as the contracted aircraft, the SAU also have a 'call when needed' register of suitable aircraft - and guess what? They're all local. And they meet the required specification regards airframes and operators (eg suitability, support, availability, competence & experience, etc).

[Squeaks]

Allan L,

Yup, 5 heavies: all from overseas, which is what the thread is about: heavies? Australia's only heavies are Johnnie Mac's 214B's, which don't figure into DSE's equations any more because JM is his own man, and sees the little empire builder as what he is. Thus, no work for a local owner/operator (ps the 214's are N reg, so he's able to operate on the CONUS, but not here!!!).

The largest VH Helitak are 412's, classified mediums. CWN in Victoria is a waste of space, DSE Air Desk would rather eat their young than call on non contract aircraft; I've known them tell CFA that there are no air assets available when fires are uncontrolled, yet up to 4 CWN mediums have been ready and willing. PM me for dates and times if you want.

The Victorian State Aircraft Unit isn't just a DSE operation - it's actually a DSE-CFA joint facility

A joint facility to which the CFA have very little input, and get what they're given by the Air Desk: usually very little, and too late

[Trev007]

Aircranes take up a huge proportion of the total fire aviation $ in Australia as well as getting 90 % of the media credit for any bombing operations .
Are they as good as we are led to believe ?
Do they really carry as much as they say in 40 plus temps ?
Would it make more sense to have more Oz helicopters and fixed wing working on the fires here building up oz pilot and aircraft resources in the process ?
Add the value to the economy by using oz based operators and aircrew living and spending their hard earned here payin tax here etc
Not after a blue with disco stu just want some healthy debate on the topic

[Squeaks]

Originally Posted by Trev007

Aircranes take up a huge proportion of the total fire aviation $ in Australia as well as getting 90 % of the media credit for any bombing operations .
Are they as good as we are led to believe ?

No. For every media release lauding the Aircrane, a dozen Australian mediums will have done far more fire suppression and support to the troops on the ground, who actually put out the fires. Air assets only contain the fire: they don't/can't put it out.

Do they really carry as much as they say in 40 plus temps ?

Definitely no. The 64F quotes 9000 litre payload, but fuel/temp limits this down to 6-7000lt for a large proportion of the time. The 64E carries less again. Three 214B's carrying 3000lt each will cost less, and get the fireline down much quicker. Even a daisy chain of (say) 412's and BK117's will often outrun an Aircrane on litre/$ and sheer effectiveness

Would it make more sense to have more Oz helicopters and fixed wing working on the fires here building up oz pilot and aircraft resources in the process

Absolutely: see my previous posts. But we need a viable alternative to the Aircrane, which is great for the "urban interface", but sometimes lacking in the Australian bush. NSW Helitaks all excel in long line bucket work (100ft lines the norm) allowing pickups from waterholes. The Aircrane needs a large lake/dam area to get into a 10 - 15ft hover to replenish its tanks, which isn't always an option out bush. Long transits then ensue from the nearest waterhole, with reduced loads onto the fire. A daisy chain of mediums will be far more effective, but again the DSE have dictated belly tanks for contract aircraft (although exemptions have been made, DSE Air Desk are obsessed with this as a requirement).

Add the value to the economy by using oz based operators and aircrew living and spending their hard earned here paying tax here etc
Not after a blue with disco stu just want some healthy debate on the topic

My point entirely

[Led Zep]

Three 214B’s

Biglifters! NOW you're talkin'!

[Trev007]

Squeaks
How about a combination of local AT 802 and some medium helo ?
If you took the total value of the $ being paid out for aircrane the ability to go to multiple fires and do a combo of attack methods using all the local gear would be a lot more benefit than one air crane
All the dough tied up with one resource if it has a problem then things turn to S**t
Is there anyone who can give some specs on oz mediums and fixed wing so a real comparison can be made

[Squeaks]

How about a combination of local AT 802 and some medium helo ?

Works well for RFS

IMHO, DSE Air Desk have hung their hats on the Aircrane and belly tanks, and really don't understand that there is a world of experience outside their little empire RFS will utilise air assets from the word go, and contain a fire until ground troops and assets can be deployed to put it out. DSE will hum and ha for a few hours, let the dragon roar, then demand Aircranes relocate 200nm (with a refuel) to work the fire, while the mediums sit on their @rse watching it all turn to worms.

Oz is a big place, and whilst the 802's are excellent when on scene, they often have a huge transit from the nearest firebase (reload/refuel) to the drop zone, thus reducing their effectiveness. Medium Helitaks with a long line to get into waterholes down through trees are usually the quickest turnround, despite lower load outs.

A bomber is only as good as its driver (airframe): when the Aircranes first started here about 8-9 years ago, their drivers were the best in the business, and never missed. As the fleet has expanded the standard has reduced a bit, which is to be expected as pilots need experience to become competent. A missed load of 6-7000lt can be the catalyst for losing a fire: a missed load of 1400lt may not always be an issue, especially if there is a daisy chain with 2 or 3 more loads only minutes away

[skidamarinkster]

Squeaks - from what I know some of your info is just not right. You seem very pro RFS and thats fine but if in the current climate you reckon that they wouldn't have a heap of aircranes in a bad fire situation you should think again. The reality is that there is nothing available that is operated/owned by Aussies that will compete with them. You mention the 214b but they have big limitations as well - if you want to carry a decent payload then endurance is 4/5 of nothing. As far as buckets go Victoria has used a number of them on both the S61s and on Col Johnstons Huey. I know they prefer/need the belly tanks for rappel aircraft as it is the only way to carry a rappel crew and then immediately commence firebombing.

Having seen a few fires in my time, because it is getting dryer the fires wont lay down like they used to. The big guns are definately at an advantage over the smaller 212/205 machines when the pressure is on. I don't want to be critical of anybody particularly when the job they faced was massive but I think you need to give a bit more credit to the aircraft guys in Vic - they run a pretty tight ship.