NVFR Up North
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Nowhere near Shinbone Waterhole
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'Twas Class 4 (Night VMC) rating in my day.
Crisscrossing the Top End at night gave me
more attacks of the leans than when I did
my CIR, esp when bushfires were around.
Dunno how many times I'd slammed into
cloud at night simply because I couldn't
see it - moonless nights were darker than
the inside of a black billy goat's arse in a
coal mine.
But all great experiences though and it did
me good stead.
Crisscrossing the Top End at night gave me
more attacks of the leans than when I did
my CIR, esp when bushfires were around.
Dunno how many times I'd slammed into
cloud at night simply because I couldn't
see it - moonless nights were darker than
the inside of a black billy goat's arse in a
coal mine.
But all great experiences though and it did
me good stead.
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Australia
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deadcut said, "Another reason is if you end up flying to a place with a TEMPO then you have to be back a whopping 1 hour and 10 minutes before last light. Unless you have a NVFR."
Not sure I'd be game to fly around NVFR while I can't land due to the tempo.
Not sure I'd be game to fly around NVFR while I can't land due to the tempo.
You arrive in vicinity an hour and ten mins prior to last light, maintain VMC and wait for that TEMPO to run itself out at 10mins prior to last light and then land. We all know met never get a forecast wrong!! 
Join Date: Jun 2001
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Wrenval, no, there is not. I have never held a NVFR rating (or Class 4 Instrument Rating, as it was called then). I completed a Class 1 (now Command) Instrument Rating whilst holding a PPL, and that covered me for the NVFR component of the CPL when I eventually finished my training. In the interim, the company I worked for at the time (private ops) required an IFR rating, so I never bothered with the NVFR stuff. It holds little value IMO anyway.
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Thanks Hugh. I had some people telling me it's useless, some people telling me it's useful because it's easier to keep current. But I guess if you keep the IR current then it will always cover you for night as well (as long as you got the aeronautical experience at night).
Join Date: Jun 2008
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Lots of interesting posts on flying in the Top End. I recall running out of daylight and having to land prior to destination when the flight planned GS was not achieved and exactly at that time, the HF frequency would start getting music from Asia.
Rules are supposedly to make operations safer however when "Rules" are framed by lawyers who have little or no practical knowledge of the effects of their "rules" it creates a nightmare.
There is a double standard. Its OK for a pilot to be placed at risk at night but as long as he crashes with freight and not passengers.
As you get closer to the tropics, the sun goes down fast and completely. It turns a pitch black while when you operate closer to the poles, when the sun goes down you can still see for hours and if the moon comes out as well, you can see pretty well.
New Zealand has a better grasp of the problem. NVR is just for circuits.
The reality is that a student getting a commercial and has to knock off their 10 hours doing night circuits is not limited by the lack of a moon, the lack of city lights or lighting period.
NVFR relies entirely on forecast weather and if that weather changes enroute then a NVFR can end up between layers, in the black, and it could be more dangerous to try to do a 180 or divert than to proceed.
It's almost guaranteed that a NVR flight will eventually enter either entirely black sky and or cloud and end up IFR.
If I recall correctly, if your CPL IFR expires, you had better have an entry in your log book for the required night cross country?
Perhaps someone else can post on that.
.
Rules are supposedly to make operations safer however when "Rules" are framed by lawyers who have little or no practical knowledge of the effects of their "rules" it creates a nightmare.
There is a double standard. Its OK for a pilot to be placed at risk at night but as long as he crashes with freight and not passengers.
As you get closer to the tropics, the sun goes down fast and completely. It turns a pitch black while when you operate closer to the poles, when the sun goes down you can still see for hours and if the moon comes out as well, you can see pretty well.
New Zealand has a better grasp of the problem. NVR is just for circuits.
The reality is that a student getting a commercial and has to knock off their 10 hours doing night circuits is not limited by the lack of a moon, the lack of city lights or lighting period.
NVFR relies entirely on forecast weather and if that weather changes enroute then a NVFR can end up between layers, in the black, and it could be more dangerous to try to do a 180 or divert than to proceed.
It's almost guaranteed that a NVR flight will eventually enter either entirely black sky and or cloud and end up IFR.
If I recall correctly, if your CPL IFR expires, you had better have an entry in your log book for the required night cross country?
Perhaps someone else can post on that.
.
Man Bilong Balus long PNG
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As previous posters have mentioned, what was then known as a Class 4 Instrument Rating or Night VMC used to be a requirement for the CPL.
No idea why it was dropped as a requirement and consider it a retrograde step M'self.
It was handy for me anyway one time when my MEIFR rating had expired and I had to do some firespotting for the local CFS.
Think you are correct on that.
No idea why it was dropped as a requirement and consider it a retrograde step M'self.
It was handy for me anyway one time when my MEIFR rating had expired and I had to do some firespotting for the local CFS.
If I recall correctly, if your CPL IFR expires, you had better have an entry in your log book for the required night cross country
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Tankengine: I thought about this exact issue actually and mulled it over some time. Are you completely sure about this point? I interpreted the regs that you can operate NVFR under your IR, so technically the aircraft only needs to be NVFR rated because you are operating under NVFR rules?
Ramjet555
Pinky the Pilot: If your IR expires, wouldn't that mean any night xcountry hours be irrelevant, and you be ****s regardless? I understand you need certain xcountry to allow you do charter at night under your IR rating though
Ramjet555
Pinky the Pilot: If your IR expires, wouldn't that mean any night xcountry hours be irrelevant, and you be ****s regardless? I understand you need certain xcountry to allow you do charter at night under your IR rating though
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Tankengine: I thought about this exact issue actually and mulled it over some time. Are you completely sure about this point? I interpreted the regs that you can operate NVFR under your IR, so technically the aircraft only needs to be NVFR rated because you are operating under NVFR rules?
I interpret the rules just like you do and so did my chief pilot.
If you have enough hours for the issue of a NVFR (excluding the NVFR Flight Test) and you have a valid IF then you can go NVFR in a NVFR rated aircraft. If I am wrong then could someone please show me the relevant information stating otherwise.
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Simple answer. IR has to be renewed every 12 months. NVFR has to be renewed every 24 months.
Depending on where you are up north, you may not be able to renew your IR. NVFR allows you to drop off passengers late in the day and return the aircraft at night, or fly night freight.
It's handy for those who can't renew their IR every 12 months due to location.
Depending on where you are up north, you may not be able to renew your IR. NVFR allows you to drop off passengers late in the day and return the aircraft at night, or fly night freight.
It's handy for those who can't renew their IR every 12 months due to location.
Man Bilong Balus long PNG
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Looking forward to returning to Japan soon but in the meantime continuing the never ending search for a bad bottle of Red!
Age: 69
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Pinky the Pilot: If your IR expires, wouldn't that mean any night xcountry hours be irrelevant, and you be ****s regardless
My understanding of it, but I may be wrong! Wouldn't be the first time either!
I'm sure that someone with the correct info will be along in due course.
