RPT's operating into the CTAF
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RPT's operating into the CTAF
G'day,
Just a quick question about RPTs. In Broome these guys (well QF, Virgin and skywest) call at 150nm, then get updated traffic at 30nm and then make a 10 mile call then a 5nm and 3nm final call... and occassionally a one mile final.
My question is when these guys are operating into a CTAF where there is no traffic service when do these guys call? obviously 10nm would be way to close seeing as these guys are doing nearly 3 miles a minute?..
Just a quick question about RPTs. In Broome these guys (well QF, Virgin and skywest) call at 150nm, then get updated traffic at 30nm and then make a 10 mile call then a 5nm and 3nm final call... and occassionally a one mile final.
My question is when these guys are operating into a CTAF where there is no traffic service when do these guys call? obviously 10nm would be way to close seeing as these guys are doing nearly 3 miles a minute?..
Multi-engined,
There is no difference to the requirements or what they should be saying.
The requirements are, for a Straight In approach (Hi Cap RPT):
Normal CTAF arrival call (most jet operators do this at 30nm; this is mandated at YBRM and at 20nm at YAYE).
15nm, advising of intention to do a SI,
5nm, when doing a SI,
(Both these calls are required by CAO 82.5)
3nm, 1nm.
The 150nm and 10nm calls on the CTAF are not required and clog up the airwaves.
For non-SI approaches, the calls should be as per AIP, with the initial call at around 30nm (some do it earlier), then joining the circuit.
when these guys are operating into a CTAF where there is no traffic service when do these guys call?
The requirements are, for a Straight In approach (Hi Cap RPT):
Normal CTAF arrival call (most jet operators do this at 30nm; this is mandated at YBRM and at 20nm at YAYE).
15nm, advising of intention to do a SI,
5nm, when doing a SI,
(Both these calls are required by CAO 82.5)
3nm, 1nm.
The 150nm and 10nm calls on the CTAF are not required and clog up the airwaves.
For non-SI approaches, the calls should be as per AIP, with the initial call at around 30nm (some do it earlier), then joining the circuit.
I have not heard too many RPT jet pilots give a call at 1 nm. Probably, for the obvious reason that by then it's only 25 seconds and 300 ft above ground from touchdown. Most, including myself, seem to just call 'final runway...' when it fits into the rest of their workflow.
If other CTAF users have not heard previous calls, or are somewhere between the jet and the runway, it's probably a bit late to be calling at 1nm.
There are two references in the rules to the required calls. One says 15 nm, 5 nm, 3 and 1 nm while the other, only 15 and 5 nm.
If other CTAF users have not heard previous calls, or are somewhere between the jet and the runway, it's probably a bit late to be calling at 1nm.
There are two references in the rules to the required calls. One says 15 nm, 5 nm, 3 and 1 nm while the other, only 15 and 5 nm.
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May be an OPS manual requirement. Even so, a little excessive I feel. 150NM is ~30 minutes out. A lot can change in that time.
Maybe they like the sound of their own voices
Maybe they like the sound of their own voices
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I have not heard too many RPT jet pilots give a call at 1 nm. Probably, for the obvious reason that by then it's only 25 seconds and 300 ft above ground from touchdown
Nunc est bibendum
I don't fly into CTAFs much (ever really) but perhaps the 150nm call is actually a call approaching top of descent to get known traffic and let others OCTA know that they're on the way down. Whilst it's about 23 minutes to touch down and lots can change, surely it's important to work out what may change as early as you can?
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Its been a little while since I've been into a CTAF but:
If i recall correctly the 150nm call was a report to the CAGRO, not a broadcast. The call was to let the CAGRO know we had the aerodrome information and an estimate and receive any known traffic.
If i recall correctly the 150nm call was a report to the CAGRO, not a broadcast. The call was to let the CAGRO know we had the aerodrome information and an estimate and receive any known traffic.
So that's where the King Leopold 210 drivers used to get the 150 mile call from!!!
Going into places like the Mitchell Plateau you would hear them calling inbound at 150 mile, then when i would call rolling, they would pipe up and ask for my intentions i kid you not!! One fella used to be hell bent on describing his radial, but he would call his heading, not the radial, i.e. 090 when he really was on the 270.........So anyway...... AND i never could work out the secret VOR these boys were tuning (if you know please PM me
), these fella's used to get struggled a fair bit, and rightfully so on the blower 
Oh and the xxx taxis, xxx enters, xxx backtracks, lines up, xxx rolls, xxx joins, xxx turns
Going into places like the Mitchell Plateau you would hear them calling inbound at 150 mile, then when i would call rolling, they would pipe up and ask for my intentions i kid you not!! One fella used to be hell bent on describing his radial, but he would call his heading, not the radial, i.e. 090 when he really was on the 270.........So anyway...... AND i never could work out the secret VOR these boys were tuning (if you know please PM me
), these fella's used to get struggled a fair bit, and rightfully so on the blower Oh and the xxx taxis, xxx enters, xxx backtracks, lines up, xxx rolls, xxx joins, xxx turns
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Where there are rules they will be either broken or modified, human nature to do so.
Give me an RPT A/C inbound to a CTAF any day, at least they are more professional at their R/T procedures than others. Some pvt pilots are very switched on without a doubt, you can tell instantly you first hear them either inbound or upon taxiing, sadly a lot make it up they go despite being 'licensed' pilots.
CW
Give me an RPT A/C inbound to a CTAF any day, at least they are more professional at their R/T procedures than others. Some pvt pilots are very switched on without a doubt, you can tell instantly you first hear them either inbound or upon taxiing, sadly a lot make it up they go despite being 'licensed' pilots.
CW
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I do not fly over there but RPT into controlled airspace in my experience often a combination of regulations and company SOP's. The 150nm call on area I assume is probably consistent with these guys getting ready for descent from controlled airspace and as such traffic is advised where known, I doubt this would be a CTAF call.
It is then often a request from ATC for the aircraft to call leaving CTA (say FL180) or around 80nm. I know we do an all stations on area (traffic XYZ and ABC Centre) and kill two birds with one stone, ATC may then say no traffic, same traffic as before or new traffic to be expected. We also start listening closely on CTAF.
At around 30nm or around 10,000' a call on CTAF is made which is usually the first call on CTAF with the usual blurb.
We do the usual calls thereafter but I raely hear the 1nm call made.
It is then often a request from ATC for the aircraft to call leaving CTA (say FL180) or around 80nm. I know we do an all stations on area (traffic XYZ and ABC Centre) and kill two birds with one stone, ATC may then say no traffic, same traffic as before or new traffic to be expected. We also start listening closely on CTAF.
At around 30nm or around 10,000' a call on CTAF is made which is usually the first call on CTAF with the usual blurb.
We do the usual calls thereafter but I raely hear the 1nm call made.
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CW
I'll bite.
Have a read of a few of the audits of the NAS2C, Ambidji, etc reports. You may be shocked. Then try the Williamtown report with the RPT head to head on a weekend outside tower hours. Wonder why a CAGRO is needed 
I think you are talking RFDS procedures, not the total population. The bad habits exist as much in RPT "Oh, I'm under commercial pressure, old chap" as in GA. We have to cease the elitist claims and work on breaking down the GA/RPT barrier - bad habits are shared across the spectrum.
I'll bite.
Give me an RPT A/C inbound to a CTAF any day, at least they are more professional at their R/T procedures than others.
I think you are talking RFDS procedures, not the total population. The bad habits exist as much in RPT "Oh, I'm under commercial pressure, old chap" as in GA. We have to cease the elitist claims and work on breaking down the GA/RPT barrier - bad habits are shared across the spectrum.
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One thing I reckon is worth passing on to the RPT guys and gals is to not include IFR approach points in your radio calls. Where I used to fly (Hervey Bay) There were 20+ regular VFR commercial movements most days. A few PVT and microlite flyers around too. Out of all of those i think you would be lucky to find a single IFR plate.
Jetstar and Virgin once a day, QFlink 3 times a day and RFDS 2-3 times a day. If the cond's are VFR I think the big boys are much better off sticking to 'downwind' '5 mile final RWY 11' and such. As opposed to tracking KILO ALPHA RWY 11 (or whatever it was) which I used to hear a from the burners.
On the flipside the locals using Pt Vernon, Round Island, Big Woody and the like were no use to the big boys.
Applies to anywhere RPT and GA share the skies I think.
For the record, never had an issue with any of the RPT fellas, always seemed happy to share the skies with us bugsmashers. Sitting on a tight down wind behind a DJ 73 and infront of a RAAF BBJ in a Tigermoth was bloody good fun too!
Jetstar and Virgin once a day, QFlink 3 times a day and RFDS 2-3 times a day. If the cond's are VFR I think the big boys are much better off sticking to 'downwind' '5 mile final RWY 11' and such. As opposed to tracking KILO ALPHA RWY 11 (or whatever it was) which I used to hear a from the burners.
On the flipside the locals using Pt Vernon, Round Island, Big Woody and the like were no use to the big boys.
Applies to anywhere RPT and GA share the skies I think.
For the record, never had an issue with any of the RPT fellas, always seemed happy to share the skies with us bugsmashers. Sitting on a tight down wind behind a DJ 73 and infront of a RAAF BBJ in a Tigermoth was bloody good fun too!
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"JM" bite all ya like Granted there are 'no-gooders' in both RPT/commercial & pvt but boiling down to choice I'd rather take my chances with the RPT'ers. The biggest advantage for RPT & the likes to be doing it right (or at least be expected to be doing it right) is the on going C&T that exists within that sector, not so the same level in the pvt sector & there in lies some of the problems.
"wanderin_d" You mention good points about position reports regarding both VFR (using geographical points)& IFR using an RNC (Radio Nav Charts for us oldies) chart for tracking points. I still believe that distance combined with a cardinal ref works best in busy CTAF AD's. As for me if I am tracking for an IAF say on an RNAV App for Eg. I tend to included that ref point in miles & bearing fm the AD or miles from a rwy extended centerline.
It's all about situational awareness obviously but it's difficult to achieve if we ALL don't "read from the same book"
CW
Granted there are 'no-gooders' in both RPT/commercial & pvt but boiling down to choice I'd rather take my chances with the RPT'ers. The biggest advantage for RPT & the likes to be doing it right (or at least be expected to be doing it right) is the on going C&T that exists within that sector, not so the same level in the pvt sector & there in lies some of the problems."wanderin_d" You mention good points about position reports regarding both VFR (using geographical points)& IFR using an RNC (Radio Nav Charts for us oldies
) chart for tracking points. I still believe that distance combined with a cardinal ref works best in busy CTAF AD's. As for me if I am tracking for an IAF say on an RNAV App for Eg. I tend to included that ref point in miles & bearing fm the AD or miles from a rwy extended centerline.It's all about situational awareness obviously but it's difficult to achieve if we ALL don't "read from the same book"
CW
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Wally.......... two excellent posts in a row! You better take the rest of the night off.
I think the problem with many pvt guys is they are 10 miles behind their a/c. They probably do not take the time to plan their descents profile wise, to brief themselves on the aerodrom and expected runways etc, and then arrive at 7 miles wondering how they got past the 10 mile point.
J
I think the problem with many pvt guys is they are 10 miles behind their a/c. They probably do not take the time to plan their descents profile wise, to brief themselves on the aerodrom and expected runways etc, and then arrive at 7 miles wondering how they got past the 10 mile point.
J
Yeah i'm hearing the thoughts on using IFR waypoints when its all gibberish to the poor VFR bugsmashers.
An Alliance F100 crew that i have heard on the radio set a pretty good example, they were inbound to a location for a DME/GPS arrival and gave a quick rundown to a VFR driver of the quadrants of the procedure, i was impressed and will apply myself in the future
An Alliance F100 crew that i have heard on the radio set a pretty good example, they were inbound to a location for a DME/GPS arrival and gave a quick rundown to a VFR driver of the quadrants of the procedure, i was impressed and will apply myself in the future
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150nm Calls?????
Dear Multi Engine,
I take it you are a radio jockey sitting at the end of the runwy listening in to a crackly portable VHF.... can tell you that VB, QF, XR etc do not call at 150nm...we still drinking coffee.
WE monitor at 45, call at 30, 15 n 5 and invariably don't call 3 or 1 as it seriously clogs the radio.
And as for saying we do 3nm/min.....being a "Multi engine" Pilot... if you are you'd know the likes of a Baron, Chieftain, etc do that..... We do 6-7 to below 10000 then being good run 250kts.
Hope this clarifies your lack of knowledge.
Cheers
Flying Seat
I take it you are a radio jockey sitting at the end of the runwy listening in to a crackly portable VHF.... can tell you that VB, QF, XR etc do not call at 150nm...we still drinking coffee.
WE monitor at 45, call at 30, 15 n 5 and invariably don't call 3 or 1 as it seriously clogs the radio.
And as for saying we do 3nm/min.....being a "Multi engine" Pilot... if you are you'd know the likes of a Baron, Chieftain, etc do that..... We do 6-7 to below 10000 then being good run 250kts.
Hope this clarifies your lack of knowledge.
Cheers
Flying Seat
Bottums Up
Nick, me old mate, I hear QF call at 150ish nm from AYQ almost every time I go in there from CNS.
Mind you, whilst it's not a mandated call, it is never-the-less useful for situational awareness.
Mind you, whilst it's not a mandated call, it is never-the-less useful for situational awareness.