Collision Avoidance in Cloud

[mostlytossas]

We used to have full reporting for all in the good /bad old days depending on your point of view. However there was still no sar no details available even then below 5000' so pilots have always had to contend with unannounced traffic. The mid air collision rate however remains very low especially away from the circuit area. That's not an acceptance of the risk by the way just a fact. There is no excuse for VFR in cloud though who amongst us have not done it even briefly at some time to get us out of trouble. In fairness before IFR pilots get all high and mighty a simular charge could be laid against them in that they don't look out the window enough. If no one answers their radio call no one's there, only to barrel up to a CTAF and find a croppy or student in a C150 sitting there.
It is the age old argument VFR don't use the radio enough IFR don't look out the window enough. If anyone has an answer to it let us all in on it but remember around the world the norm is less radio congestion from VFR aircraft, less controllers /aircraft and more technology ie mode c ,tcas ,etc.

[peuce]

" ... It is the age old argument VFR don't use the radio enough IFR don't look out the window enough. If anyone has an answer to it let us all in on it..."

... dare I ? ... oh, what the hell ..

How about ADS-B ?

[Capt Wally]

I'd hate to imagine how many VFR A/C I have come close to over the years that where in cloud, having no TCAS and a lot of the times outside of radar leaves us IFR guys/gals purely at the mercy of VFR drivers hopefully doing the right thing. Flying around Vic I often hear ATC conversing with a VFR driver that is in my area that at my best guess would put him/her in cloud, or at least not obeying the rules pertaining to cloud separation abv 5000'. And as for meat bombers? well unless most have approval to drop thru cloud I often at times think, "how the hell can they drop when all I see is total cloud cover blw?" Apologies to those operators that do have approval.

A pilot (any pilot ) is only as good as his instructors where (initially)& his ongoing checks whether it be a renewal or a BFR.

CW

[On eyre]

I fly both VFR and IFR - although there is no excuse for VFR in IMC in defence of the poor VFR guys trying to maintain awareness of all traffic what really pisses me off is IFR traffic requesting traffic for descent (and reporting on descent) without indicating where they are descending to (and ATC do not help either). Knowing that IFR rarely look out the window the assumption is made that if no traffic is given then no traffic is there!! Let's face it it is not only RFDS types that go to and from unlikely destinations on unlikely routes. That one thing alone would help to increase traffic awareness and calm the fevered brow of both IFR and VFR pilots.

[Philthy]

Have a read of this, then:

200702559

Airprox - Princess Charlotte Bay, Queensland, Dornier DO 228-202K, VH-YJD, Cessna T210M, VH-FGW, 25 April 2007

[mostlytossas]

Very interesting, however a simular thing happened at Olympic Dam about a year ago between a RPT F50 and a Metro both IFR (the Metro was departing VFR I think) I assume both 2 crew that had a near miss with the F50 on final and the metro departing on the opposite runway. The F50 did not see the metro backtracking down the runway the metro did not transmit on the ctaf apparently. So there it can still happen with 2 experianced crews and they missed by metres. It was on this site at the time so check the search function. I seem to recall the TCAS went off in the F50 after the metro became airborne due to a squat switch or something simular.
As far as ADS-B couldn't something simular happen with that too?
Just a thought.

[Tmbstory]

It has been a risk since flying began. About all you can do is listen on the radio for conflicting traffic and hope that you manage to see them when you are in cloud.

I recall a near miss in the Bindook area many years ago on the way to Sydney, going through culumus cloud and just as I was leaving one and before entering the next one an unannounced VFR traffic crossed at right angles to me at our altitude. That was my luck for the day.

Tmb

[VH-XXX]

On Eyre, I don't get your point:

"what really pisses me off is IFR traffic requesting traffic for descent (and reporting on descent) without indicating where they are descending to (and ATC do not help either). "

OF COURSE, ATC know exactly where the IFR aircraft is and where they are descending into...... it's just that everyone else doesn't know where they are referring to and nor should they be worried.

[peuce]

4X-1,

What On Eyre is trying to say is that it would help with everyone's Situational Awareness if IFRs (or anyone for that matter) didn't just call on frequency ... " Melbourne Centre, FKA is on descent, passing through eight thousand"

It would be great to know that he was ... " ... passing through eight thhousand on descent to Mangalore " ... especially if you happen to be overflying Mangalore at 5000ft.

[Spodman]

IFR traffic requesting traffic for descent (and reporting on descent) without indicating where they are descending to (and ATC do not help either).

OF COURSE, ATC know exactly where the IFR aircraft is and where they are descending into...... it's just that everyone else doesn't know where they are referring to and nor should they be worried.

I think what he is getting at is some think it would be nice if IFR announce their position and destination when descending, eg:

Pilot helping, “ABC, 30 MILES SOUTH OF BALLARAT, ON DESCENT.” “AOC, NO REPORTED TRAFFIC.”

ATC helping, “ABC, ON DESCENT.” “ABC, NO REPORTED TRAFFIC BALLARAT.”

It ain’t in AIP, it ain’t in MATS. Doesn’t mean you or I can’t do it.

I've been given traffic advice in that area for a flock of birds…PS: I love hearing something like this:

Radar - VH-XXX, no observed IFR traffic for your descent. G'day.
XXX - Radar, do you have any VFR traffic for my descent?
Radar - VH-XXX, yeah sure, 1 at 2 o'clock, 1 at 12 o'clock and 1 at 11 O'clock, at your altitude. G'day.

Erm, have you read the following, is vital information:
AIP GEN 3-3 2.13.1 A traffic information service will be provided…depending on higher priority duties of the controller or other limitations; eg, radar limitations, volume of traffic, frequency congestion, or controller workload…Pilots are cautioned that there are many times when the controller is not able to give traffic information concerning all traffic in the aircraft’s proximity; in other words, when a pilot requests or is receiving traffic information, he/she should not assume that all traffic will be issued.

It may have been workload, but he did have time to say G’day… Traffic on IFR is a higher priority for him to do than traffic on the VFR which you should see before you hit.

Some days primary returns from those with transponders that are off/broken/not installed stand out and look like aircraft, others there are clouds of other primary returns from changes in air density/cars/birds/ghosts in the console (we call them angels) which mask them completely.

Another fascinating feature of primary radar is a filter called the Moving Target Indicator. If a return is changing it’s range from the radar the MTI decides it is moving and puts it on the ATC screen. If the range is not changing it decides the target is stationary and the ATC does not see it. This most effectively filters out hills/towers/ground returns near the airport. If you and your mate are tracking between WAREN and the training area along the circumference of a circle based on Gellibrand Hill then as far as the MTI is concerned you are not moving, and ATC will not see a primary return!!!

[ResumeOwnNav]

OF COURSE, ATC know exactly where the IFR aircraft is and where they are descending into...... it's just that everyone else doesn't know where they are referring to and nor should they be worried.

All traffic VFR or IFR should be "worried" in this case. If I was on descent I would hope a VFR aircraft cruising at a level I will be descending through at a position between me and my destination would 'pipe' up on the radio and let me know of their presence!

Also, when I am VFR outbound/transiting and ANY aircraft IFR/VFR is inbound from near the same relative bearing, I will contact them and organise seperation either stop climb or diversions from track.

To not do this I believe is pure arrogance.

Maybe this is because away from the Jcurve we dont always have the luxury of radar coverage?

[Jabawocky]

no but ya in Tinpis Country!!!

[Flying Binghi]

Hmmm... sounds to me some want Oz VFR pilots to subsidise the continued incompetence of a handfull of IFR drivers who could'nt be bothered looking out the window.

....or many fanciful stories from the ADS-B sales people ?

[Biggles_in_Oz]

I salute you Mr Binghi. You are a superman, with better than 20/20 vision (to see traffic at 10nm), you have a superb visual scan (to locate all the traffic), you have reflexes down to the microsecond (to avoid the traffic you didn't see), you have excellent situational awareness (to keep track of the traffic that's hidden by cloud but which did use the radio), oh and you also have 2 (IFR) GPS units and a TAS in your aircraft.

[Ovation]

Flying Binghi

Hmmm... sounds to me some want Oz VFR pilots to subsidise the continued incompetence of a handfull of IFR drivers who could'nt be bothered looking out the window.

Hmmm…. Don’t quite understand the IFR vs VFR “subsidy” comment – perhaps you might explain further? I don’t know whether you fly IFR or VFR, but I find it boring looking out the window in (solid) cloud, unless it goes black, which always get my attention.

As it stands, the pilot of the VFR aircraft involved was either dumb, stupid or both, and broke down the separation standards between VFR and IFR by:

(1) Failing to monitor Area Frequency or:

(2) Monitored but did not respond to Centre when called, and:

(3) Descended through cloud.

The location is critical too – close to Sydney CTR with converging or diverging traffic (both VFR and IFR) and VFR aircraft descending to avoid the steps - VFR pilots need to monitor frequency very closely.

The Avidyne TCAD system is not cheap, but it adds another layer of traffic awareness that might save your skin when all else fails - last Sunday it’s value was priceless.

[Kelly Slater]

I remember a radio exchange between an IFR and a VFR aircraft organising separation. The VFR seemed unable to state his exact position and the IFR came back with "I'm in cloud so we must be clear". He didn't sound convinced.