Uni Degree
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 29
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks again everyone for your advice and opinions, I guess I am looking at having an edge over someone else in the employment stakes and thought a degree might help. I have a plan B if all else fails and thats what I am doing now, running a business in a trade I have done for years.
This is still a big undertaking if its only to gain an employment edge, I did it and hugely regret that I didn't do something more useful.
I dont see parceling aviation subjects with a few electives being a useful fallback if the wolf is at the door.
A degree is also to some extent a perishable qualification.
Have you considered a trade? At least you would get paid as you learn.
I dont see parceling aviation subjects with a few electives being a useful fallback if the wolf is at the door.
A degree is also to some extent a perishable qualification.
Have you considered a trade? At least you would get paid as you learn.
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 29
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mate I already have a trade that has enabled me to run my own business. So I guess I am not in fear of everything going wrong because I would just start another business again or work for a company.
It does seem that unless I aspire to management one day I am just better off sticking to a decent ground school to hammer out the theory for now and look to a degree in the future once (or if) I can establish a career in aviation.
Thanks again everyone
It does seem that unless I aspire to management one day I am just better off sticking to a decent ground school to hammer out the theory for now and look to a degree in the future once (or if) I can establish a career in aviation.
Thanks again everyone
Nunc est bibendum
A couple of quick points.
Sure if you're competing with someone with the same flying hours you MAY get the nod first. However, odds are the person with the degree will have 1000-2000 hours less than someone the same age if the non-degree pilot hit the flying hard whilst the degree pilot was at uni. That means you're not even in the same race. The person who went and got the hours first may already be in the airline. Then all you've done is joined three years behind in seniority.
It also depends heavily on the airline. In Australia it may not. My understanding of the QF selection process is that they place a lot more credence in the data they collect on you during the process than whether or not you've got a degree. That's why people with degrees with 2000 plus hours get knocked back whilst the no degree person with 1000 hours gets the nod.
Similar to initial pilot employment, getting into a pilot management position is more about respective individuals personal qualities than what letters appear after your name. Sure the letters may have an impact at some stage but if you're not looking at management immediately then you can certainly consider a degree after you've got the flying job.
Finally, consider that a few thousand hours of flying experience will see you get some credit transfer into the degree program. This will make it cheaper and quicker to do part time. If you do it just before or after you turn 30 then it'll still stand you in good stead if you lose your license.
My final bit of advice is that a B.Av should only be seen as a stepping stone to something that may actually be useful- M.Comm, M.Buss, etc. A B.Av on it's own won't get you very far in the medium to long term.
Keg
B.Av.
It puts you further up the queue when applying for a job in an airline.
It also depends heavily on the airline. In Australia it may not. My understanding of the QF selection process is that they place a lot more credence in the data they collect on you during the process than whether or not you've got a degree. That's why people with degrees with 2000 plus hours get knocked back whilst the no degree person with 1000 hours gets the nod.
It gives you a head start for any pilot management position.
Finally, consider that a few thousand hours of flying experience will see you get some credit transfer into the degree program. This will make it cheaper and quicker to do part time. If you do it just before or after you turn 30 then it'll still stand you in good stead if you lose your license.
My final bit of advice is that a B.Av should only be seen as a stepping stone to something that may actually be useful- M.Comm, M.Buss, etc. A B.Av on it's own won't get you very far in the medium to long term.
Keg
B.Av.
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: greece
Age: 33
Posts: 90
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It is a backstop if you ever lose your medical.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Australia
Age: 40
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am one of those that elected to do a Bachelor of Aviation with the flying included, i think the 3 years at uni was an excellent experience. The quality of the flying training was in my opinion was some of the best available, and the intensity that it required was extremely beneficial.
However, like previous posts the piece of power has no benefit until later in your career. The thing about uni was the life skills, the people, the parties and giving yourself a chance to have a bit of fun before you throw yourself into a few years earning peanuts and fighting with the other monkeys to get a foot up the ladder.
As one lecturer once said to me, do whatever is easiest for you. Life is to be enjoyed, not to be slaved over.
Good luck with whatever option you take.
However, like previous posts the piece of power has no benefit until later in your career. The thing about uni was the life skills, the people, the parties and giving yourself a chance to have a bit of fun before you throw yourself into a few years earning peanuts and fighting with the other monkeys to get a foot up the ladder.
As one lecturer once said to me, do whatever is easiest for you. Life is to be enjoyed, not to be slaved over.
Good luck with whatever option you take.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Australia
Posts: 725
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Aviation degrees?
Waste of money. And did anybody at the Uni student enquiries office tell you that it might COST you opportunities?
Get a job.
This industry sorts CV's based on Aeronautical Experience. ATPL or CPL? Total Time? How many IF renewals? Night, IF, command, multi, multi command, turboprop, turbojet, RPT, EFIS?
CASA Licence, Ratings, Endorsements, and.. Hours.
Lets say you get the airline gig. Turn up at groundschool. Your sim buddy was hired on the same day. He went north and started flying about the same time you were half way through Uni. He has 500+ more hours than you.
As mentioned above, having a B.Av does not give you an 'hours credit.'
He is senior to you. He will be considered for bigger equipment (and more money) than you first. He will be considered for command (and LOTS more money) than you first.
Want to get into airline management? Not that unlike getting into management in other front-line occupations. Bye bye shift allowances, overnight allowances. Supervisory allowance or training allowance barely offsets those, if at all.
Do the degree only if you find it interesting. Do a degree if you will use the knowledge. In that case, do the flying first, and do the knowledge bit when you are getting close to that management/specialist role. Eg Human factors will be different in 2015. Principles of Human Factors in Aviation from 2009 will be out-of-date, unless you keep up with journals whilst you sit in your humpy in the Torres Straits.
I thought Generation Y had built in bullsh!t detectors. Mine goes off like a geiger counter at Chernobyl when I hear the words "Bachelor of Aviation."
Do it for interest, or for specific specialist knowledge and techniques, for which you see an immediate application.
Not for 'hiring advantage.' Thats uni marketing bullsh!t.
Waste of money. And did anybody at the Uni student enquiries office tell you that it might COST you opportunities?
Get a job.
This industry sorts CV's based on Aeronautical Experience. ATPL or CPL? Total Time? How many IF renewals? Night, IF, command, multi, multi command, turboprop, turbojet, RPT, EFIS?
CASA Licence, Ratings, Endorsements, and.. Hours.
Lets say you get the airline gig. Turn up at groundschool. Your sim buddy was hired on the same day. He went north and started flying about the same time you were half way through Uni. He has 500+ more hours than you.
As mentioned above, having a B.Av does not give you an 'hours credit.'
He is senior to you. He will be considered for bigger equipment (and more money) than you first. He will be considered for command (and LOTS more money) than you first.
Want to get into airline management? Not that unlike getting into management in other front-line occupations. Bye bye shift allowances, overnight allowances. Supervisory allowance or training allowance barely offsets those, if at all.
Do the degree only if you find it interesting. Do a degree if you will use the knowledge. In that case, do the flying first, and do the knowledge bit when you are getting close to that management/specialist role. Eg Human factors will be different in 2015. Principles of Human Factors in Aviation from 2009 will be out-of-date, unless you keep up with journals whilst you sit in your humpy in the Torres Straits.
I thought Generation Y had built in bullsh!t detectors. Mine goes off like a geiger counter at Chernobyl when I hear the words "Bachelor of Aviation."
Do it for interest, or for specific specialist knowledge and techniques, for which you see an immediate application.
Not for 'hiring advantage.' Thats uni marketing bullsh!t.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: australia
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I was speaking to a Qantas 737 FO a little while back who has done the Bachelor of Aviation and he seemed to think that the Swinburne Degree is quite recognised at Qantas for producing what it is that Qantas want, being that they have trained in line with Qantas SOP's and to a high standard. Although I'm not sure how much benefit a lot of the theory component is with subjects like ergonomics and integrated safety management systems..
The FO did also quote a statistic of roughly how many FO's on the 737 at Qantas were graduates from the Swinburne degree, I can't remember exactly the percentage he gave but it was around 65 to 75%.. surely thats saying something.
The FO did also quote a statistic of roughly how many FO's on the 737 at Qantas were graduates from the Swinburne degree, I can't remember exactly the percentage he gave but it was around 65 to 75%.. surely thats saying something.
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,382
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What Keg and ITCZ said +
Nope never helped me get a flying job. Might help getting a desk job in aviation.
The predicted "all airlines will require them by 20xx" never came true. It was pure marketing. Actually you'd be better off doing a marketing degree come to think of it!
So if i had my time over? Go to a cheap aeroclub with experienced instructors and maybe do a degree in another field or do a trade as a back up. The problem is, if you finish the first degree you start and happen to change your mind and want to do another degree you are in for a nasty shock with regard to upfront fees (unless its changed).
People at Unis and affiliated flying schools are selling you something. Its no different to going down to Holden then Honda and asking them "whats a good car to buy?". They'll tell you all the things that make you feel warm and fuzzy and kind of happy and upbeat. You'll walk out thinking "wow i really could get into Qantas!! Look at all those previous students". Mum and Dad will be excited to and everyone will feel great together.
Now as I've said before I went and got every bell and whistle (the top marks the degreees everything) you could pin on a resume but at the end of the day as Keg pointed out the QF process places more weighting on their system than your experience or credentials. It means johnny with 500 cmd on a 172 can and will beat davo 2000 hr jet jockey. Suddenly you think to yourself "hmmm that didn't work!". Anyway at the end of the day there are other good flying jobs out there so its not the end of the world.
An important statistic: Not one airline in Australia to date has listed a aviation degree as a minimum requirement.
So in the end i burned 3 years and 10k on something that never got a mention in any flying interview. I think what really was happening was that i was putting off going into ga
!
Go get yourself a degree in something else that you can actually use should things not turn out the way you would have liked them to. Good luck.
Nope never helped me get a flying job. Might help getting a desk job in aviation.
The predicted "all airlines will require them by 20xx" never came true. It was pure marketing. Actually you'd be better off doing a marketing degree come to think of it!
So if i had my time over? Go to a cheap aeroclub with experienced instructors and maybe do a degree in another field or do a trade as a back up. The problem is, if you finish the first degree you start and happen to change your mind and want to do another degree you are in for a nasty shock with regard to upfront fees (unless its changed).
People at Unis and affiliated flying schools are selling you something. Its no different to going down to Holden then Honda and asking them "whats a good car to buy?". They'll tell you all the things that make you feel warm and fuzzy and kind of happy and upbeat. You'll walk out thinking "wow i really could get into Qantas!! Look at all those previous students". Mum and Dad will be excited to and everyone will feel great together.
Now as I've said before I went and got every bell and whistle (the top marks the degreees everything) you could pin on a resume but at the end of the day as Keg pointed out the QF process places more weighting on their system than your experience or credentials. It means johnny with 500 cmd on a 172 can and will beat davo 2000 hr jet jockey. Suddenly you think to yourself "hmmm that didn't work!". Anyway at the end of the day there are other good flying jobs out there so its not the end of the world.
An important statistic: Not one airline in Australia to date has listed a aviation degree as a minimum requirement.
So in the end i burned 3 years and 10k on something that never got a mention in any flying interview. I think what really was happening was that i was putting off going into ga
!Go get yourself a degree in something else that you can actually use should things not turn out the way you would have liked them to. Good luck.
Last edited by Mr. Hat; 12th Nov 2008 at 02:01.
Nunc est bibendum
The FO did also quote a statistic of roughly how many FO's on the 737 at Qantas were graduates from the Swinburne degree, I can't remember exactly the percentage he gave but it was around 65 to 75%.. surely thats saying something.
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,382
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ITCZ, always enjoy reading you posts very informative but bloody funny sometimes. This is an alltime favourite:
I had a boss once used to refer to his bullsh!t meter readings. I struggled to not have a bit of a chuckle at the time.
I thought Generation Y had built in bullsh!t detectors. Mine goes off like a geiger counter at Chernobyl when I hear the words "Bachelor of Aviation."
Im doing a degree... More out of interest and learning, its an interesting course, and you do learn alot if interesting things. I started mine nearly 4 years ago, took some time off, and started again this year. I do it externally so I dont have to worry about not flying and can continue on in life etc. When I go for my next job, the peice of paper saying Degree will matter about as much as would me telling the interview panel I have always wantd to fly for _____company since I could walk.
What I find really interesting though is 4 years ago we had maybe 20 people max in each lecture( when I was there). Now, with a huge push for....."airlines love an aviation degree" there are more little biggles than one can shake a stick at. You read the posts these guys make on the online uni forums for tasks etc....alot are...." I just want to fly for an airline or Q, and this will help me" or "Im doing this as its my best chance to get a leg up etc etc" From 20 to over 100 in each class....Me thinks the uni is making alot of money. Who is the smart ones here? Its become a sausage factory. Sure the knowledge you gain will help in alot of ways. Just not in the " Why should we hire you " way.
Maybe I should start an aviation uni, get a HECS approval, get some airline on board to say "go team go" and never have to worry about where my paycheck comes from again. Whos with me.
What I find really interesting though is 4 years ago we had maybe 20 people max in each lecture( when I was there). Now, with a huge push for....."airlines love an aviation degree" there are more little biggles than one can shake a stick at. You read the posts these guys make on the online uni forums for tasks etc....alot are...." I just want to fly for an airline or Q, and this will help me" or "Im doing this as its my best chance to get a leg up etc etc" From 20 to over 100 in each class....Me thinks the uni is making alot of money. Who is the smart ones here? Its become a sausage factory. Sure the knowledge you gain will help in alot of ways. Just not in the " Why should we hire you " way.
Maybe I should start an aviation uni, get a HECS approval, get some airline on board to say "go team go" and never have to worry about where my paycheck comes from again. Whos with me.
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: hmm.......
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
degree
i learnt f
k all from my AV degree, now all i can do is spill out the P of F book to my students, nothing more.i dont wana be a management pilot, i just wana fly. and if i do loose medical one day, i will try to be a sim instructor or something so i can still get to play with the machines, and get satisfaction from teaching, rather than being the dude that all other company pilots hate
it didnt get me any contacts at all, only when i go for an interview and they shake their heads and saidly say:"so you are one of them"
50
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: London
Posts: 1,256
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You can get a degree, have all the flying you want, and get paid as well. Its called the military. Gives you all that and you can usually get into airlines when and if you retire.
G'day guys,
I did my Cpl a few years back, then went to uni and did a Bachelor in Nursing - same as Hasselhof.
Seems to have worked out pretty well for me - still do casual nursing to get a bit more dosh while pursuing flying. Pays heaps better and not have as much bitching from the staff!!
I did my Cpl a few years back, then went to uni and did a Bachelor in Nursing - same as Hasselhof.
Seems to have worked out pretty well for me - still do casual nursing to get a bit more dosh while pursuing flying. Pays heaps better and not have as much bitching from the staff!!
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: australia
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Degrees..
Doing the Bachelor of Aviation is the best thing that I've ever done. I'm almost finished my degree, and I can say from experience that doing this degree definately helped me get my job in the industry. I know many people who have got jobs out west or instructing whilst still doing the degree full time (you can do it online). So the arguement of "it will put you three years behind everyone else" is total BS. As well as that you meet alot of great people (which is important now that the flying schools are over run by asians, and while they are nice, they won't be able to help you get jobs when they go back to china/india), learn things relevent to your first job out west that you would never know otherwise and learn about the aviation industry as a whole. Also having your flight training put on fee-help doesnt hurt.
So get with the times, and do a degree!!
So get with the times, and do a degree!!
From my experience, an Aviation degree is fun... but I have never won a job because of it.
... except for my first job because tourists doing laps of the various rocks in the outback would prefer to have a 23 year old bare CPL pilot than a 18 1/2 year old bare CPL.
Of the initial class of 30-odd that started in first year, I only know of 6 that are employed in Aviation.
University is great and a completed degree will be great training for your brain muscles. BUT if aviation "management" interests you, or business generally, do eco/commerce... or law, with a special interest in insolvency.
Horatio B.Sc(Av)
... except for my first job because tourists doing laps of the various rocks in the outback would prefer to have a 23 year old bare CPL pilot than a 18 1/2 year old bare CPL.
Of the initial class of 30-odd that started in first year, I only know of 6 that are employed in Aviation.
University is great and a completed degree will be great training for your brain muscles. BUT if aviation "management" interests you, or business generally, do eco/commerce... or law, with a special interest in insolvency.
Horatio B.Sc(Av)
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Asia
Posts: 142
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Totally agree MP
I agree Miss pilot, also the best thing I ever did in terms of the learning exercise alone and the ability to think a little differently.
I now have my so called dream job and the degree definitely helped.
Orangputi
I now have my so called dream job and the degree definitely helped.
Orangputi
Last edited by Orangputi; 18th Nov 2008 at 05:54. Reason: The degree did not improve my ability to spell!
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,382
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
over run by asians
Be very careful about sprouting uni "superiority" if you go into ga as many haven't done it as they couldn't afford it as you will get a silver spoon arrogant tag very quickly. More than likely though you will get straight into a regional or airline and not have to worry about that side of things.
You might also find that when it actually comes to packing the bags and heading out west into a declining jobs market that many of the people won't be there as expected. Many sh!t themselves and chicken out. One thing is to walk around coles in your uniform and another is to go into a ga where every single door you knock on is met with a "no" or "F-off".
If you are quick however you might just be able to get on the tailend of an ga employment boom that was silent for 10-15 years.
Last edited by Mr. Hat; 18th Nov 2008 at 22:31.
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 44
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I applied for the Bachelor Of Aviation Course and had an interview scheduled however, I've had some time to think about it. If I were younger, didn't have a degree or could not afford to fund it myself without borrowing a huge sum of money from the bank then I would have definitely committed to doing the course at Swinburne and incur a huge HECS debt. Uni life is great and I miss it but unfortunately it's 3 more years I don't have and I'm basically half way through the CPL course anyway, loving every minute of it.
I will always have a degree to fall back on if this journey doesn't work out... subject to the economy improving
Everybody has different needs and circumstances..
I will always have a degree to fall back on if this journey doesn't work out... subject to the economy improving
Everybody has different needs and circumstances..