Victa Airtourer 115
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Wing drop on landing whilst flapless in the 'tourer?
Did anyone notice/become aware! how the Airtourer likes to drop a wing whilst flapless on landing if a little slow? It scared me 'silly' the first time it happened and I landed it a little hot whilst flapless any time after that. I am not sure to this day whether it is the machine we had or common across the range.I still think it is a great training machine and the Piper and Cessna mob were right to pay it the respect it deserved and nip the whole thing pretty much in the bud.
In the relatively few aeros I have done with the machine I have noticed that you need to check forward/relax at the top of the loop. Seems to make it all a little smoother.
RPP
In the relatively few aeros I have done with the machine I have noticed that you need to check forward/relax at the top of the loop. Seems to make it all a little smoother.
RPP
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Did anyone notice/become aware! how the Airtourer likes to drop a wing whilst flapless on landing if a little slow?
Now I've got the hang of it, and a bit more confidence, 70kts works much better.
When the Airtourer first came to the aero clubs, the 100hp was 60kts short field and 65 normal with 4 stages of flap.... Until a certain CFI dropped a wing on short final at MB. Aircraft was deemed by the boffins of the day to have "aileron snatch" which would apply un-commanded full roll at slow speeds. The fix was to blank off the 4th stage of flaps and do some more flight tests. Results of those tests was that the a/c did not have aerodynamic aileron snatch, but a false snatch caused by the weight of the upper part of the control column (the spade handle). The fix to this was to add springs to the control system that would always hold the column in the center position. You will notice if you push the column to one side when you get in, it will spring back to center.... except if you are in NZ where they did not make the spring mod mandatory. With the springs installed the 4th stage of flap could be used again (but not really necessary). 3 stages is plenty. As for approach.... for a 150hp 70kts minimum (short field) and 75kts normal is adequate under most circumstances. In calm or steady conditions an experienced Airtourer pilot could 60kts for a short field for the last 100ft or so. Just don't close the throttle till the wheels touch, otherwise the sudden drop will get you big time!
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Airtourer wingdrop on flapless approach
Cogwheel,
Many thanks for your explanation. I flew a NZ Airtourer ZK-CMF serial number 57 if that is important to anyone with four stages of flap and no evidence of a centralising spring on the spade handle. I flew many, many approaches with flap at or below 60 knots from memory but I think I made the conscious decision to never approach at below 70 knots flapless till just about on the deck....A shade of power certainly helps...still one of my favourite aircraft and I have seen it airborne on take off at around 40 knots...
RPP
Many thanks for your explanation. I flew a NZ Airtourer ZK-CMF serial number 57 if that is important to anyone with four stages of flap and no evidence of a centralising spring on the spade handle. I flew many, many approaches with flap at or below 60 knots from memory but I think I made the conscious decision to never approach at below 70 knots flapless till just about on the deck....A shade of power certainly helps...still one of my favourite aircraft and I have seen it airborne on take off at around 40 knots...
RPP
Worth mentioning that the T-6 model doesn't have stall strips on the wing and it behaves much differently at the stall with flaps up. I've often wondered how they managed to show compliance with the stall handling requirement for uncommanded roll.
Thanks cogwheel, I'd forgotten that story of the springs. I wouldn't have described him as a boffin - that engineer who was involved always seemed very sensible (a pilot too) although would strictly adhere to his interpretation of the regs. An Airtourer without the aileron springs does feel much nicer in my opinion.
Thanks cogwheel, I'd forgotten that story of the springs. I wouldn't have described him as a boffin - that engineer who was involved always seemed very sensible (a pilot too) although would strictly adhere to his interpretation of the regs. An Airtourer without the aileron springs does feel much nicer in my opinion.
djpil
Of course the aircraft is "nicer" to handle without the springs, however unless you are getting on in years, flown a modified a/c or flown one in NZ you may not have experienced same. My use of the term "boffin" was to describe in general the folk that do the testing and the maths associated with such things - a term of endearment if you like!
I recall that much of that test flying was in fact carried out by a long time instructor/CFI from LTV. The DCA of the day were part of that process. They also stalled one on and wrote it off at BCS, so always best to leave it to more experienced pilots, or in some circumstances qualified test pilots, I say.
RPP
60kts with power is fine (maybe a bit more in a 150/160 due weight) but conditions would not want to be rough as the margin to the stall is minimal.
As for flapless, I don't recall doing a flapless landing for some time and certainly 70kts would be a minimum in such configuration. One must remember that the stall warning only works when flap is other than zero (UP).
As for loops etc... I have always used 140-145 for entry (easy in a 150hp) - usually finish up with about 60 over the top.
Thanks cogwheel, I'd forgotten that story of the springs. I wouldn't have described him as a boffin - that engineer who was involved always seemed very sensible (a pilot too) although would strictly adhere to his interpretation of the regs. An Airtourer without the aileron springs does feel much nicer in my opinion.
I recall that much of that test flying was in fact carried out by a long time instructor/CFI from LTV. The DCA of the day were part of that process. They also stalled one on and wrote it off at BCS, so always best to leave it to more experienced pilots, or in some circumstances qualified test pilots, I say.
RPP
60kts with power is fine (maybe a bit more in a 150/160 due weight) but conditions would not want to be rough as the margin to the stall is minimal.
As for flapless, I don't recall doing a flapless landing for some time and certainly 70kts would be a minimum in such configuration. One must remember that the stall warning only works when flap is other than zero (UP).
As for loops etc... I have always used 140-145 for entry (easy in a 150hp) - usually finish up with about 60 over the top.
OK, he was a boffin then.
Was that Aub?
Earlier in the year he was telling me about some early experiences with Airtourers. Aub taught me aerobatics in an Airtourer 100 many years ago.
PS - expect three Airtourers at the National Aerobatic Championships next month. The two competing at the Victorian Championships last month did nice round loops - one came close to winning - except that the competition sequence has a one and three-quarter spin however the T-6 AFM limits that model to one and a half turns.
much of that test flying was in fact carried out by a long time instructor/CFI from LTV
Earlier in the year he was telling me about some early experiences with Airtourers. Aub taught me aerobatics in an Airtourer 100 many years ago.
PS - expect three Airtourers at the National Aerobatic Championships next month. The two competing at the Victorian Championships last month did nice round loops - one came close to winning - except that the competition sequence has a one and three-quarter spin however the T-6 AFM limits that model to one and a half turns.
I ferried a 100 from Brisbane to Proserpine once, hour building for my CPL. Bit of a slow trip but quite comfortable & pleasant. Paused for a few aeros on the way for a break from the routine. Have also flown a 115, a 150 and also a 160hp injected. *Much* nicer doing aeros in the last two!
I never found using the dipstick a problem. Quite simple & accurate. More accurate than what was supplied with most other aircraft ie nothing! Trimming required a unique technique: Use the trim lever to get trimmed as accurately as the detents would allow, then adjust power *slightly* to finish. The brakes made you feel like you didn't have enough hands at first but you soon got used to it.
I never found using the dipstick a problem. Quite simple & accurate. More accurate than what was supplied with most other aircraft ie nothing! Trimming required a unique technique: Use the trim lever to get trimmed as accurately as the detents would allow, then adjust power *slightly* to finish. The brakes made you feel like you didn't have enough hands at first but you soon got used to it.
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The nose leg was indeed a McPherson strut off a 100E Ford Anglia. The fuel cap off an early Ford Falcon.
Wonderful little machine. Did exactly what t was designed to do.
Wonderful little machine. Did exactly what t was designed to do.
My logbook shows 5.7 hours in ZK-CLF. It includes a few trips, Wanaka to Taieri (sp?) and back,Wanaka to Queenstown and back, and the final trip was Wanaka to Mandeville where I picked up DH82 ZK-CCH. Good fun little machine, though it gave the wife a bit of a scare when the prop stopped going over the top of a stall turn.
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when the prop stopped going over the top of a stall turn.
Henry Millicer used to call the dipstick, the "donkey d1ck" for obvious reasons. It worked well, but 3 dips was the norm to ensure u got it right.
Did not work very well one day when a 100 had an engine failure and landed in an oval. No fuel!. But they did find a dolphin flash light in the fuel cell bay. That would have reduced capacity by a few gallons. !!! Say no more!!
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The nose leg was indeed a McPherson strut off a 100E Ford Anglia. The fuel cap off an early Ford Falcon.
The FC was '58, I think (we had one!). 1960 would have been about the time of the classic EK!
My log book shows 33 min circuits in this little beastie (ZK-DYK, interesting registration!), which I always figured was 30 min too much!
Dr
My log book shows 33 min circuits in this little beastie (ZK-DYK, interesting registration!), which I always figured was 30 min too much!
Dr
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Ah, fond memories of learning to fly, going solo, getting baked in the sun under the canopy on navex's. Only flew the 100's and 115's - preferred the latter - but way back then there wasn't a 150 etc.
However, it did have a mini side (OK, middle) stick of sorts way before Airbus thought of them!!!!
However, it did have a mini side (OK, middle) stick of sorts way before Airbus thought of them!!!!
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Close Triadic, 1960 was the FB - EK came next year. They all had same type handbrake lever, including FE(57) and FC(58). Have got a few hours up in Victa 100's MGG/MGK but cant recall the handbrake lever
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FC Holden it was!
Some Google required!!
This link to pic of interior of FC holden shows the hand brake handle lower to the right of the steering wheel. The plastic handle is what is used on the Airtourer.
FC (58) would be about right as the prototype was nearing completion then. In fact Good Friday 10 April is 50years since the first flight of VH-FMM.
http://www.pearlcraft.com.au/wheel%2...20tone%205.jpg
This link to pic of interior of FC holden shows the hand brake handle lower to the right of the steering wheel. The plastic handle is what is used on the Airtourer.
FC (58) would be about right as the prototype was nearing completion then. In fact Good Friday 10 April is 50years since the first flight of VH-FMM.
http://www.pearlcraft.com.au/wheel%2...20tone%205.jpg
VH-MRE
Ferried this Victa 115 from Port Moresby to Brisbane over 3 days in February 1966. TT was 18.5 hrs - o/n stops at TI, Townsville. My 'co-pilot' was well known 'Territorian' Vince Sanders.
Man that was a long trip, but lots of fun at the time.
happy days,
Ferried this Victa 115 from Port Moresby to Brisbane over 3 days in February 1966. TT was 18.5 hrs - o/n stops at TI, Townsville. My 'co-pilot' was well known 'Territorian' Vince Sanders.
Man that was a long trip, but lots of fun at the time.
happy days,