Copilot 'passed out' before Garuda crash
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Reminds me of the CRM (or lack of) during the QF over run in BKK.
Doesnt just happen in ASIA-CRM trainning occurred after western pilots destroyed aeroplanes and lives,because crew members didnt speak up.
EA L1011 into the Everglades and UA DC8 short of Portland to name but a few.
Doesnt just happen in ASIA-CRM trainning occurred after western pilots destroyed aeroplanes and lives,because crew members didnt speak up.
EA L1011 into the Everglades and UA DC8 short of Portland to name but a few.
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Too true BWM
The co-pilots testimony of 'blacking out' is in relation to the criminal proceedings against the operating captain. Hopefully this seperate court action will not compromise the integrity of the accident investigation.
Perhaps Chapelle Corby should have tried the 'Blacked out' defence strategy.
"Just saving face Your Honour"
The co-pilots testimony of 'blacking out' is in relation to the criminal proceedings against the operating captain. Hopefully this seperate court action will not compromise the integrity of the accident investigation.
Perhaps Chapelle Corby should have tried the 'Blacked out' defence strategy.
"Just saving face Your Honour"
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I know that lack of CRM plays a big part in all parts of the aviation world but, having spent some 10+ years training in airlines in SE Asia, may I say that culture and loss of face have no equals in shaping the behaviour of crews in this part of the world. And this is despite some real committments by some local airlines to CRM training.
A previous post compared the first officer's possibility of taking control from the captain to raping the latter's wife - you better believe it!
Egypt Air 990 and SilkAir 185 remain amongst the extreme results of "loss of face."
A previous post compared the first officer's possibility of taking control from the captain to raping the latter's wife - you better believe it!
Egypt Air 990 and SilkAir 185 remain amongst the extreme results of "loss of face."
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Re the 'loss of face' issue; I remember reading quite some years ago of an airlined operated by a Japanese (?) company which finished up off the end of a runway somewhere in flames.
Cannot remember how many passengers survived but both Pilots survived the crash, but to avoid loss of face they refused to leave their seats, even though capable of doing so.
They both perished in the flames!
Cannot remember how many passengers survived but both Pilots survived the crash, but to avoid loss of face they refused to leave their seats, even though capable of doing so.
They both perished in the flames!
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Pinky you find the one you are thinking off was Korean Airlines Boeing 747-200 HL7445.
Crashed on Landing at Seoul 11th April 1979.
ASN Aircraft accident Boeing 747-2B5B HL7445 Seoul-Kimpo International Airport (SEL)
Crashed on Landing at Seoul 11th April 1979.
ASN Aircraft accident Boeing 747-2B5B HL7445 Seoul-Kimpo International Airport (SEL)
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Change of mind
Don't you just love how he can change his testimony?
The whole saving face thing is aimed at not only saving himself from any blame but also the captain. He can't embarass the captain after the accident.. that would be impolite....I don't think we are meant to understand this.
The whole saving face thing is aimed at not only saving himself from any blame but also the captain. He can't embarass the captain after the accident.. that would be impolite....I don't think we are meant to understand this.
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This whole LOSS OF FACE syndrome is a very real threat to aviation safety in some parts of the world. An American professor wanted to raise the subject as a safety issue and was howled down as being "racist."
The travelling public are entitled to become aware of this risk.
The travelling public are entitled to become aware of this risk.
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I'm with Casper and Watchdog on this one, safety is paramount in aviation and overrides any and all other considerations! No 'ifs' and 'buts', period. 
If cultural considerations are a well known contributor to serious accidents, the world's aviation powers must be lobbied and persuaded to address these issues by mandating drill training and examinations of known situations in which going against cultural norms could endanger the safety of a flight.
Examples could be extending the syllabus (and exams) in the ATPL and CPL human factor theory topics, and devising and mandating simulator exercises that are mandatory pass/fail items for flight crew.
Not doing so is tantamount to refusing to develop as human beings, and exposes travelers around the world to unnecessary risk and suffering.
If cultural considerations are a well known contributor to serious accidents, the world's aviation powers must be lobbied and persuaded to address these issues by mandating drill training and examinations of known situations in which going against cultural norms could endanger the safety of a flight.
Examples could be extending the syllabus (and exams) in the ATPL and CPL human factor theory topics, and devising and mandating simulator exercises that are mandatory pass/fail items for flight crew.
Not doing so is tantamount to refusing to develop as human beings, and exposes travelers around the world to unnecessary risk and suffering.
Man Bilong Balus long PNG
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Cool banana; Thanks for that.
Agree with Casper's comment.
Agree with Casper's comment.
All the CRM lectures and all the pretty posters on allied subjects pinned on briefing room walls will never change 2000 years of Asian culture. A thousand student pilots destined for airlines north of Darwin (political correctness reigns, OK) have passed through the briefing offices of Australian flying schools with dedicated instructors doing their best to instill safe flying practices. Once these students leave our shores their memory of good airmanship is lost within their cultural mores. Something about you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink...
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Mr Gagam withdrew that testimony and now says he fainted at an altitude of 2,500 feet and did not wake up until the plane was already on the runway.
"When I yelled go around, after that I passed out not long after that. I regained consciousness when the plane was already past the runway," he said.
"When I yelled go around, after that I passed out not long after that. I regained consciousness when the plane was already past the runway," he said.
Valled it selective un-consciousness. hope he never gets his license back again
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All the CRM lectures and all the pretty posters on allied subjects pinned on briefing room walls will never change 2000 years of Asian culture.
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The problem is it is so easy to do. After flying four sectors my F/O and I were looking forward to a steak and beer on a HBA overnight, put it down to fatigue or over confidence or what ever, but I put in the worst landing of my career. I had recently changed types, (DC9 to B727) and think in my fatigue I reverted back to the old A/C. There is not a pilot alive who does not think at some point of his flying " oh ****,this is not going to be pretty" and it was'nt. The pax were fairly rattled, and turned their heads to see who the idiot was who tried to kill them,as they disambarked, and the F/O and F/E were very polite but obviously shaken. The LAME was less forgiving " You were fu$kin lucky you didnt get a fu%kin spar up your ar$e" and sign the heavy landing report! On the crew bus, I thought about it very hard, and remembered the F/O bracing himself for the landing, I asked him why he did not ask for a go around he replied " I never thought at any stage you would lose control of the A/C" which I didn't but I could have. We both agreed over a beer that we had committed a cardinal sin, I for not going around, he,for not requesting it, it was a big wakeup call for us both, and I have to say my confidence in my flying ability was tested. And that was a very good thing. I had to submit a report due to the heavy landing paper, and I fully expected to have to do a Sim but nothing more was said (other than the odd snide but humourous remarks from other pilots) (the Townsville refueler has a lot to answer for)! Fatigue played a big part in it, but to my shame,overconfidence also played a part, and I took that lesson with me for the rest of my career.
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PB you don't get it do you? The buggars go back to China or Malaysia or Indonesia etc and operate within their own country and culture. You have no chance to change it mate. A coupla' thousand round eye western instructors together can't overturn centuries of culture especially if we are over here in OZ and they are (millions of them, Billions in China) over there in their homeland.
Simply don't fly with Asian airlines if you want to avoid an accident caused by this causal factor. Western airlines do still make mistakes and have cockpit gradients etc but not on the scale of Asian airlines.
Simply don't fly with Asian airlines if you want to avoid an accident caused by this causal factor. Western airlines do still make mistakes and have cockpit gradients etc but not on the scale of Asian airlines.
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Zhaadum, I am talking about mandating it globally by IATA/ICAO, so that they have to drill exercise it regularly in their own countries.
Cultures and behaviours have changed continually over millions of years, one thing that makes us human is our ability to adapt and actively seek out change. It's been done before, it can be done again. Talk to the psychologist of your trusting to confirm
Cultures and behaviours have changed continually over millions of years, one thing that makes us human is our ability to adapt and actively seek out change. It's been done before, it can be done again. Talk to the psychologist of your trusting to confirm
