Another Red Baron down - all safe
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Another Red Baron down - all safe
Talk about bad news coming in threes.
Looks like a GFPT pilot and new wifey walked away OK.
No other details aside from "clipped a tree".
Honeymooners survive plane crash | theage.com.au
Looks like a GFPT pilot and new wifey walked away OK.
No other details aside from "clipped a tree".
Honeymooners survive plane crash | theage.com.au
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Beware Carby Icing
Having spoken to the Pilot, it would appear that Carby Icing was the culprit in the loss of the Robin.
The conditions that morning were perfect for it, low cloud and a mild fog, and the event occurred when he tried to go around from a PFL. He did not use carby heat as he started the PFL at 1500' due to low cloud. As ATSB are not investigating I am going from the direct discussion I have had with the Pilot involved.
I'm glad the outcome was not more serious. They are doing ok and have some cracked vertebra and possibly a cracked ankle for the Pilot. He did a great job to get the aircraft on the ground in a level attitude. The aircraft then did the rest by dissipating the energy while still protecting them. Both got out of the aircraft without much assistance.
Blue Skies
The conditions that morning were perfect for it, low cloud and a mild fog, and the event occurred when he tried to go around from a PFL. He did not use carby heat as he started the PFL at 1500' due to low cloud. As ATSB are not investigating I am going from the direct discussion I have had with the Pilot involved.
I'm glad the outcome was not more serious. They are doing ok and have some cracked vertebra and possibly a cracked ankle for the Pilot. He did a great job to get the aircraft on the ground in a level attitude. The aircraft then did the rest by dissipating the energy while still protecting them. Both got out of the aircraft without much assistance.
Blue Skies
Last edited by JayBe; 19th Oct 2008 at 07:04. Reason: add more info.
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PFL from a low altitude on a joy flight with passengers and marginal weather, let alone on a "honeymoon joy flight"? 
Is that even allowed on a GFPT? Needless to say it's probably not the brightest choice of maneuvers given the situation and skill level
Ah well, most importantly they more or less hobbled away from it, and although cracked vertebrae will probably leave them with some sort of long term symptoms, the cracked ego and insurance record hopefully means many wiser choices in the future
Blue skies indeed
Is that even allowed on a GFPT? Needless to say it's probably not the brightest choice of maneuvers given the situation and skill level
Ah well, most importantly they more or less hobbled away from it, and although cracked vertebrae will probably leave them with some sort of long term symptoms, the cracked ego and insurance record hopefully means many wiser choices in the future
Blue skies indeed
Last edited by PlankBlender; 19th Oct 2008 at 07:15.
Wouldn't necessarily be from low altitude - if the carby icing struck at say 5 or 600 ft he is straight into a real forced landing. It looks like the wings hit pretty straight and level. I know plenty of pilots who shoot a PFL almost every time they fly - many would call it a safe practice.
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Firstly good to read that only a few manageable injuries are the end result.
Now I ask why do they have a carby heat control in such A/C in the first place? For exactly the reason why this craft has now become part of our accident history, for the continious operation of an internal combustion engine under such atmospheric conditions. I was always taught to use carby heat regardless of wx, alt etc.
Still aviation is the best learning ground there is.
CW
Now I ask why do they have a carby heat control in such A/C in the first place? For exactly the reason why this craft has now become part of our accident history, for the continious operation of an internal combustion engine under such atmospheric conditions. I was always taught to use carby heat regardless of wx, alt etc.
Still aviation is the best learning ground there is.
CW
CASR 249
I am sure the PIC was not practicing forced landings. I am sure he was just wanting to descend from 3500 feet to 500 feet to look at something at the best L/D ratio and turning 90 degrees every 500 feet or so... 
Prohibition of carriage of passengers on certain flights
(1) The pilot in command of an aircraft that carries a passenger must not
engage in any of the following types of flying:
(a) flying training given to a person who has not passed a general
flying progress flight test for aircraft of the category concerned;
(b) practice of emergency procedures in the aircraft;
(c) low flying practice;
(d) testing an aircraft or its components, power plant or equipment.
(1) The pilot in command of an aircraft that carries a passenger must not
engage in any of the following types of flying:
(a) flying training given to a person who has not passed a general
flying progress flight test for aircraft of the category concerned;
(b) practice of emergency procedures in the aircraft;
(c) low flying practice;
(d) testing an aircraft or its components, power plant or equipment.
I agree: Engine failure? carby heat on - real or simulated. No question. I wouldn't read too much into the GFPT status - a lot of the red baron pilots fly advanced aeros for years without moving beyond a GFPT.
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i was flying in the area at the time, i wouldn't have called the weather marginal, fog/cloud was at 2000, and scattered and only about 200ft thick but unfortunately conditions for ice were near perfect, high humidity, and about 17Deg OAT.
If they were out in the training area, around 3000ft or higher, then bringelly would have been at the bottom of decent to get under the 2500ft class C step.
If they were out in the training area, around 3000ft or higher, then bringelly would have been at the bottom of decent to get under the 2500ft class C step.
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I've got about 7 hours in MXI and was doing PFLs in her about a month ago. On the Robin (at Red Baron anyway - no experience of other schools or aircraft types) it is procedure to apply carby heat in a simulated engine failure and is drummed into you by the instructors.
He shouldn't have been below 500ft AGL either. Not without an instructor. Obviously shouldn't have been performing PFLs with a passenger.
Great to see both are safe. Pretty upset that my baby MXI is dead though!
He shouldn't have been below 500ft AGL either. Not without an instructor. Obviously shouldn't have been performing PFLs with a passenger.
Great to see both are safe. Pretty upset that my baby MXI is dead though!
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Probably the biggest stupidity in the whole saga is for the pilot (if indeed this is true) to tell the story as it was relayed here.. the owner and more importantly the insurance company will most likely have a field day and he will probably end up paying for the damage himself, as he is clearly in breach of regulations and should have known better
My advice to anyone caught out in any way whatsoever, no matter whether they think they're culpable or not: If there is substantial damage involved (which certainly applies here, beautiful machine), keep your mouth shut, seek legal advice and then make a statement that is measured and thought through. That way, you have at least some sort of understanding of the likely consequences!
I know it's hard if you're on the stretcher and you're in shock and people ask questions, but if you just remember to say nothing until you had a chance to sit back and think, that's all that's needed to give you a chance to protect your own interests and assets! We all make mistakes, but there are too many people out there (especially in insurance companies, they specifically seek out ill-considered statements) who will pounce at the smallest chance to get one over on you!
To JayBe: You should consider the consequences before you make statements that could result in significant liability. This could come back to bite you in the @ss if your (then former) friend turns around and denies having had said conversation, and then comes after you for damages sought from him based on that conversation..... by putting it on here, you have opened yourself to accusations of libel, which is not a very bright thing to do
My advice to anyone caught out in any way whatsoever, no matter whether they think they're culpable or not: If there is substantial damage involved (which certainly applies here, beautiful machine
), keep your mouth shut, seek legal advice and then make a statement that is measured and thought through. That way, you have at least some sort of understanding of the likely consequences! I know it's hard if you're on the stretcher and you're in shock and people ask questions, but if you just remember to say nothing until you had a chance to sit back and think, that's all that's needed to give you a chance to protect your own interests and assets! We all make mistakes, but there are too many people out there (especially in insurance companies, they specifically seek out ill-considered statements) who will pounce at the smallest chance to get one over on you!
To JayBe: You should consider the consequences before you make statements that could result in significant liability. This could come back to bite you in the @ss if your (then former) friend turns around and denies having had said conversation, and then comes after you for damages sought from him based on that conversation.....
by putting it on here, you have opened yourself to accusations of libel, which is not a very bright thing to do
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Why would the student (is that what he is?) end up paying for the damage? wether it is his fault or not?
Isnt the operator/flying school insured for hickups? wether mechinical failure or pilot error?
Just out off intrest.
What about the rest off us who'm work as pilots GA or otherwise?
I no i got live insurance that will go to the missus, wether it was my fault or the aeroplanes. but that obviusly only gets paid out if i don't come home.
cheers
Isnt the operator/flying school insured for hickups? wether mechinical failure or pilot error?
Just out off intrest.
What about the rest off us who'm work as pilots GA or otherwise?
I no i got live insurance that will go to the missus, wether it was my fault or the aeroplanes. but that obviusly only gets paid out if i don't come home.
cheers
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I am about the live insurance thing
and wondered if and why old mate would have to pay for damaging plane IF it was his fault.
If you go to a driving school and end up damaging the car surely you dont have to pay for that?
just wondering
and wondered if and why old mate would have to pay for damaging plane IF it was his fault.
If you go to a driving school and end up damaging the car surely you dont have to pay for that?
just wondering
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Insurance contracts usually exclude liability in cases of negligence or breach of the law (try getting a rental car damage paid for by insurance if you'd had a drink..).
I looked at my policy, and voila:
(My bolding.)
As the pilot in this case seems to have admitted to causing the breach (taking a passenger while conducting emergency practice), he might be in trouble.
If you are employed, it may be a different game altogether as employers usually have some sort of employee liability insurance on top of the asset (read airframe) insurance.
In this case, it depends on the wording of the contract the operator of the school/rental business has with his insurance, but I certainly wouldn't go round and tell stories if I had just pranged an airframe
I looked at my policy, and voila:
AVN 94 – Breach of air navigation regulations clause
The cover afforded to each Insured by the Policy shall not be invalidated by any act or omission which results in a breach of any air navigation or airworthiness orders or requirements issued by any competent authority
affecting the safe operation of the Aircraft provided that the Insured so protected has not caused, contributed to or knowingly condoned the said act or omission. Any Insured who has caused, contributed to or knowingly
condoned the said act or omission shall not be entitled to indemnity under the Policy.
The cover afforded to each Insured by the Policy shall not be invalidated by any act or omission which results in a breach of any air navigation or airworthiness orders or requirements issued by any competent authority
affecting the safe operation of the Aircraft provided that the Insured so protected has not caused, contributed to or knowingly condoned the said act or omission. Any Insured who has caused, contributed to or knowingly
condoned the said act or omission shall not be entitled to indemnity under the Policy.
As the pilot in this case seems to have admitted to causing the breach (taking a passenger while conducting emergency practice), he might be in trouble.
If you are employed, it may be a different game altogether as employers usually have some sort of employee liability insurance on top of the asset (read airframe) insurance.
In this case, it depends on the wording of the contract the operator of the school/rental business has with his insurance, but I certainly wouldn't go round and tell stories if I had just pranged an airframe
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However the breach has to have been a causual factor in the accident. i.e. the carrying of a passenger probably does not make the engine ice up. (if that were the case) (however the distraction of a passenger [especially a honeymooner] might have contributed to the ommission of carb ice protection) 
i'll go now, you get my drift
i'll go now, you get my drift
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I think that it's great to learn from other people's mistakes, but I think the sort of information provided to this forum about this incident in particular would have best been kept private, at least until the dust had settled and the insurance paid out.
It's a very big risk to take toying with information, be it accurate or not, that could pottentialy leave somebody out of pocket to the possible tune of up to six figures.
If the pilot has indeed made a mistake or unknowingly broken the law (remember he is only a GFPT and a very early one from what I understand) then that is something that should be kept private to be dealt with by his instructor/s and CFI and not bantered around on a public forum such as this for all and sundry to provide their 5 cents worth.
Of course I have no problem discussing the do's and dont's of aviation, I just think it's a bit early to be discussing the details of such an incident before the facts have been put on the table.
I am also very suprised. if its true, that there will be no ATSB investigation.
It's a very big risk to take toying with information, be it accurate or not, that could pottentialy leave somebody out of pocket to the possible tune of up to six figures.
If the pilot has indeed made a mistake or unknowingly broken the law (remember he is only a GFPT and a very early one from what I understand) then that is something that should be kept private to be dealt with by his instructor/s and CFI and not bantered around on a public forum such as this for all and sundry to provide their 5 cents worth.
Of course I have no problem discussing the do's and dont's of aviation, I just think it's a bit early to be discussing the details of such an incident before the facts have been put on the table.
I am also very suprised. if its true, that there will be no ATSB investigation.
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As far as I can tell The Red Baron are the operators and the insured, they did nothing wrong and therefore should not have an issue with the insurance company. The Pilot may have to pay an excess however that will probably be it.
There is also a thing called taking responsibility for your actions and it would seem some of the comments made in this thread would imply that if you think you may be at fault then you should not let the truth get out for fear of liability issues... Great attitude... Then some poor other bugger makes the same mistake and says nothing and procedures don't change... Safety is again compromised. The whole reason we should be talking about what caused this accident is to try and prevent it from happening again.
Here's how I think it will go.
Pilot and new wife will recover from their injuries and vow never to fly together again, pilot will takes some remedial training but probably tell wife he has given up flying...
Red Baron will get insurance pay out. They will also highlight again to their students the importance of Carby Heat during PFL's. Hire rates may go up to cover increase in excess.
No punishment from CASA can be worse than the fear the Pilot must have felt during the incident. Not to mention the long physical recovery ahead for himself and his wife.
We should not fear insurers or regulator if knowledge gained in this way can help prevent another accident.
There is also a thing called taking responsibility for your actions and it would seem some of the comments made in this thread would imply that if you think you may be at fault then you should not let the truth get out for fear of liability issues... Great attitude... Then some poor other bugger makes the same mistake and says nothing and procedures don't change... Safety is again compromised. The whole reason we should be talking about what caused this accident is to try and prevent it from happening again.
Here's how I think it will go.
Pilot and new wife will recover from their injuries and vow never to fly together again, pilot will takes some remedial training but probably tell wife he has given up flying...
Red Baron will get insurance pay out. They will also highlight again to their students the importance of Carby Heat during PFL's. Hire rates may go up to cover increase in excess.
No punishment from CASA can be worse than the fear the Pilot must have felt during the incident. Not to mention the long physical recovery ahead for himself and his wife.
We should not fear insurers or regulator if knowledge gained in this way can help prevent another accident.