RAA and IFR sharing Class G
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RAA and IFR sharing Class G
By popular demand in another thread.. enjoy the lively discussion 
On that charity tour around the country I did in May, we had a couple of well-meaning farmers with their Jabiru's as part of the contingent, and their antics made me soil my pants on more than one occasion
Now I'm not having a go at the chaps in question, they are bloody nice, very generous and all that, and the experiences I am sharing here are more than anything a reflection of their standards of training, which we should all know about to be able to factor them into our planning
Firstly, the radio calls were what you would expect of a five hour PPL student, if that. I don't think I'd exaggerate if I said they probably simply wouldn't make any calls whatsoever going in and out of the rural strips they normally use. I guess most of the time they don't really need to as they're by themselves in the great outback, but they really couldn't make a call to save their lives, literally
By the end of the tour, I am happy to report, they could actually navigate controlled airspace with some degree of confidence, so we've saved at least a few souls
More worringly, they didn't have the foggiest clue about even the simplest circuit procedures, let alone other things every pilot should know: We had guys barreling down the wrong direction runway with traffic coming down final the other end, taxiing down cross-runways thinking they were taxiways after they made calls for the runway they didn't land on, taxiing down the active runway making calls for a backtrack on the inactive one, they'd be going round the circuit the wrong way, and these are just a few instances where I made a sharp turn and got the hell outta there..
Now, we'll probably be pushing this thread majorly off topic, but I would seriously question the training and testing standards of the RAA in some cases. According to their own publications, this is a known problem they're trying to address, but I am questioning why, in this over-regulated country of ours, these guys are sharing the majority of airfields with IFR traffic, often even RPT?!
Rant over
On that charity tour around the country I did in May, we had a couple of well-meaning farmers with their Jabiru's as part of the contingent, and their antics made me soil my pants on more than one occasion
Now I'm not having a go at the chaps in question, they are bloody nice, very generous and all that, and the experiences I am sharing here are more than anything a reflection of their standards of training, which we should all know about to be able to factor them into our planning
Firstly, the radio calls were what you would expect of a five hour PPL student, if that. I don't think I'd exaggerate if I said they probably simply wouldn't make any calls whatsoever going in and out of the rural strips they normally use. I guess most of the time they don't really need to as they're by themselves in the great outback, but they really couldn't make a call to save their lives, literally
By the end of the tour, I am happy to report, they could actually navigate controlled airspace with some degree of confidence, so we've saved at least a few souls
More worringly, they didn't have the foggiest clue about even the simplest circuit procedures, let alone other things every pilot should know: We had guys barreling down the wrong direction runway with traffic coming down final the other end, taxiing down cross-runways thinking they were taxiways after they made calls for the runway they didn't land on, taxiing down the active runway making calls for a backtrack on the inactive one, they'd be going round the circuit the wrong way, and these are just a few instances where I made a sharp turn and got the hell outta there..
Now, we'll probably be pushing this thread majorly off topic, but I would seriously question the training and testing standards of the RAA in some cases. According to their own publications, this is a known problem they're trying to address, but I am questioning why, in this over-regulated country of ours, these guys are sharing the majority of airfields with IFR traffic, often even RPT?!
Rant over
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Plankie mate
Gotta agree with you here.
There is a huge....massive level of of training and profficiency difference in the RAA ranks. Yes its in GA also, but the difference is far greater than most would like to believe.
I am based out of YCAB and we have a GA IFR school and GA PPL/CPL school that are both tops, we also have two excellent RAA schools run by CPL and ex airline folk. They teach not to the RAA minimums and in fact could teach to PPL and CPL standards in RAA clobber if you wanted to. They never let a student out at the mins, no matter who the student is.
Now as for the many RAA folk who fly around these parts about 10-20% of them are full time QF/VB/JQ drivers during the week. Another 20-30% are pretty good operators, and the balance vary from good to dangerous with the last 30% being in the poor to dangerous. I am not just covering YCAB here but say SE Qld.
My observations at some events around the place suggests this is not just SEQ but the rest of the country.
My list of areas covers the following....... fuel management, radio, CTAF procedures, navigating around CTA, having a transponder, appropriate freq, what is an ERC
, charts & ERSA younger than 2004... not likely
, staying below 5000' especially without being on the correct freq and transponder equipped, some general flying skills, and basically grab a Bob Tait book and pick a topic!
Now I know we all stuff a few things from time to time but there is a definate problem here.
I know for a fact that some folk will visit a certain flying instructor for a BFR and by virtue of the fact you arrive he signs you out. These folk are not getting any remdial training. Now I do believe if you do nothing you are just as bad, so those I know around the place I urge and I have my RPT mates help urge better standards from these folk, however there are hundreds more.
I am not an instructor and I am far from being as experienced as many but I do try to emulate the standards I see from FTDK, Chimbu Chuck and a few other RPT mates, and I try to encourage others to do the same, but this can not be said to be happening elsewhere because the problems Plankie speaks of is just the tip of the ice berg.
OK flame suit on..... and FB, would you pass me a beer or three also!
VH - Jaba
Gotta agree with you here.
There is a huge....massive level of of training and profficiency difference in the RAA ranks. Yes its in GA also, but the difference is far greater than most would like to believe.
I am based out of YCAB and we have a GA IFR school and GA PPL/CPL school that are both tops, we also have two excellent RAA schools run by CPL and ex airline folk. They teach not to the RAA minimums and in fact could teach to PPL and CPL standards in RAA clobber if you wanted to. They never let a student out at the mins, no matter who the student is.
Now as for the many RAA folk who fly around these parts about 10-20% of them are full time QF/VB/JQ drivers during the week. Another 20-30% are pretty good operators, and the balance vary from good to dangerous with the last 30% being in the poor to dangerous. I am not just covering YCAB here but say SE Qld.
My observations at some events around the place suggests this is not just SEQ but the rest of the country.
My list of areas covers the following....... fuel management, radio, CTAF procedures, navigating around CTA, having a transponder, appropriate freq, what is an ERC
, charts & ERSA younger than 2004... not likely, staying below 5000' especially without being on the correct freq and transponder equipped, some general flying skills, and basically grab a Bob Tait book and pick a topic!Now I know we all stuff a few things from time to time but there is a definate problem here.
I know for a fact that some folk will visit a certain flying instructor for a BFR and by virtue of the fact you arrive he signs you out. These folk are not getting any remdial training. Now I do believe if you do nothing you are just as bad, so those I know around the place I urge and I have my RPT mates help urge better standards from these folk, however there are hundreds more.
I am not an instructor and I am far from being as experienced as many but I do try to emulate the standards I see from FTDK, Chimbu Chuck and a few other RPT mates, and I try to encourage others to do the same, but this can not be said to be happening elsewhere because the problems Plankie speaks of is just the tip of the ice berg.
OK flame suit on..... and FB, would you pass me a beer or three also!
VH - Jaba
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Man, people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones as they say. It's just as bad in GA my friend! There will always be people out there with no idea. Luckily you had God on your side otherwise you would have been in trouble.
Interesting call from the weekend from Jump Aircraft:
"Cessna overflying airfield you have just transited an active drop zone, you have parachutes above AND below you"
Interesting call from the weekend from Jump Aircraft:
"Cessna overflying airfield you have just transited an active drop zone, you have parachutes above AND below you"
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I don't wish to start a thread war between GA and RAA as I tend to agree with VH that there are good and bad pilots in both camps, despite the perceived higher standard of training in GA. However, as Jaba has alluded to, there are RAA guys who are flagrantly flouting the rules, which has caused me considerable concern as an IFR pilot.
Recently I flew a twin (IFR) around Eastern Oz and came across a group of 5 RAA-registered Jabiru pilots who were on the way to WA. As turbulence on this particular day was quite bumpy on occasions, I happened to remark to this Jabiru group that it must be quite fatiguing to be flying a Jabiru in this turbulence when restricted to no more than 5000ft. To my astonishment, this group just laughed and said that they had done most of their flying to date at between A070 and A100 (including IFR levels) and to cap it off only 1 of the aircraft was equipped with a radio!
As politely as I could myself and another pilot friend tried to convince these guys that what they were doing was not in their own safety interest nor was it positively contributing to the safety of IFR operations. Basically, these guys didn't give a "&*it" which is what I found most annoying. Unfortunately, as I didn't have the regos of the aircraft involved, I was unable to take it further.
Recently I flew a twin (IFR) around Eastern Oz and came across a group of 5 RAA-registered Jabiru pilots who were on the way to WA. As turbulence on this particular day was quite bumpy on occasions, I happened to remark to this Jabiru group that it must be quite fatiguing to be flying a Jabiru in this turbulence when restricted to no more than 5000ft. To my astonishment, this group just laughed and said that they had done most of their flying to date at between A070 and A100 (including IFR levels) and to cap it off only 1 of the aircraft was equipped with a radio!
As politely as I could myself and another pilot friend tried to convince these guys that what they were doing was not in their own safety interest nor was it positively contributing to the safety of IFR operations. Basically, these guys didn't give a "&*it" which is what I found most annoying. Unfortunately, as I didn't have the regos of the aircraft involved, I was unable to take it further.
I don't wish to start a thread war between GA and RAA as I tend to agree with VH that there are good and bad pilots in both camps, despite the perceived higher standard of training in GA. However, as Jaba has alluded to, there are RAA guys who are flagrantly flouting the rules, which has caused me considerable concern as an IFR pilot.
Recently I flew a twin (IFR) around Eastern Oz and came across a group of 5 RAA-registered Jabiru pilots who were on the way to WA. As turbulence on this particular day was quite bumpy on occasions, I happened to remark to this Jabiru group that it must be quite fatiguing to be flying a Jabiru in this turbulence when restricted to no more than 5000ft. To my astonishment, this group just laughed and said that they had done most of their flying to date at between A070 and A100 (including IFR levels) and to cap it off only 1 of the aircraft was equipped with a radio!
As politely as I could myself and another pilot friend tried to convince these guys that what they were doing was not in their own safety interest nor was it positively contributing to the safety of IFR operations. Basically, these guys didn't give a "&*it" which is what I found most annoying. Unfortunately, as I didn't have the regos of the aircraft involved, I was unable to take it further.
Recently I flew a twin (IFR) around Eastern Oz and came across a group of 5 RAA-registered Jabiru pilots who were on the way to WA. As turbulence on this particular day was quite bumpy on occasions, I happened to remark to this Jabiru group that it must be quite fatiguing to be flying a Jabiru in this turbulence when restricted to no more than 5000ft. To my astonishment, this group just laughed and said that they had done most of their flying to date at between A070 and A100 (including IFR levels) and to cap it off only 1 of the aircraft was equipped with a radio!
As politely as I could myself and another pilot friend tried to convince these guys that what they were doing was not in their own safety interest nor was it positively contributing to the safety of IFR operations. Basically, these guys didn't give a "&*it" which is what I found most annoying. Unfortunately, as I didn't have the regos of the aircraft involved, I was unable to take it further.
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Gooday QSK
I am surprised at your claim about only one with a radio. Perhaps you meant Transponder.
Every Jabiru be it factory or kit built is supplied with a radio. Do not know of any exceptions. I do know of folk ordering less radio so they could install a different make.
As for the rules and RAA, they can operate above 5000 if radio equipped and if need be i.e safe height above terrain and possibly turbulence but thats always been a mystery to me.
Like I have said already, quite a large number are RPT or retired RPT guys, and I do mean a lot, however there is the same number and more that are just so far at the other end of the spectrum it is a disgrace.
FB, are you trying to get a reaction out of me? You will have to try harder, a lot harder!
J
I am surprised at your claim about only one with a radio. Perhaps you meant Transponder.
Every Jabiru be it factory or kit built is supplied with a radio. Do not know of any exceptions. I do know of folk ordering less radio so they could install a different make.
As for the rules and RAA, they can operate above 5000 if radio equipped and if need be i.e safe height above terrain and possibly turbulence but thats always been a mystery to me.
Like I have said already, quite a large number are RPT or retired RPT guys, and I do mean a lot, however there is the same number and more that are just so far at the other end of the spectrum it is a disgrace.
FB, are you trying to get a reaction out of me? You will have to try harder, a lot harder!
J
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It won't matter soon because the 5,000ft restriction is about to be lifted, prior to part 103 being implemented. That AND entry into CTA will be available for RA pilots. With oxygen expect to see someone in their Jab over 15k+ ft!
Flying Binghi:
I can see clarification is required here: 5 pilots flying in a group of 5 Jabiru aircraft; one of which was radio equipped.
Is that better?
Cheers!
I can see clarification is required here: 5 pilots flying in a group of 5 Jabiru aircraft; one of which was radio equipped.
Is that better?
Cheers!
FB, are you trying to get a reaction out of me? You will have to try harder, a lot harder!
Last edited by Flying Binghi; 8th Oct 2008 at 03:41.
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Ah this will be a good show hopefully. This topic bothers me particularly as i often fly in the vicinity of Barwon Heads and i have just made a post on the token Barwon Heads thread about sloppy R/T and dangerous driving within CTAF's - both in the air and on the ground.
I am unsure if there is a solution for this and i am merely having a rant. I am only VFR and i do feel for IFR operators especially the RPT one's that have to operate in the vicinity of these muppets.
Here is a copy of my rant from last night - not that anyone probably cares but i just want to get it out of my system:
"It sure was a hive of activity on sunday, but more aircraft flying out of Barwon Heads means more pathetic R/T - and boy was it pathetic on sunday.
"Ahhhh all stations ah Barwon Heads, Alpha Bravo Charlie 5 miles ah west runway 35".
What the frig does this mean? Care to disclose a/c type, altitude and intentions?, Didn't the all stations call at a CTAF go out with MBZ's and Flightwatch?
It is great that this place can now prosper as an airfield, but someone needs to go down there and educate those that use the aerodrome and alert them to the fact that there are 2 CTAF's and a CTAF(R) / CTR in very close proximity, not to mention weekend warriors from MB/EN going down the coast.
I was up with a mate on sunday that has no idea about aviation at all and even he made a comment like "What the f**k are these guys trying to say?".
I am sure that they have lots of students and weekend warriors flying out of Barwon Heads but i think a CASA would have a bit to say if they were to listen in on a days flying out there."
povopilot. - Making a nomination for airfield with the worst R/T in oz.
P.s i realize that RAA are not all to blame as anyone who flies into Moorabbin will agree, but lining up on 17 at Barwon Heads and having a guy in something resembling a ride-on mower with rotor blades enter 35 and proceed to take off really makes you not want to be around radio-less RAA nutters.
I am unsure if there is a solution for this and i am merely having a rant. I am only VFR and i do feel for IFR operators especially the RPT one's that have to operate in the vicinity of these muppets.
Here is a copy of my rant from last night - not that anyone probably cares but i just want to get it out of my system:
"It sure was a hive of activity on sunday, but more aircraft flying out of Barwon Heads means more pathetic R/T - and boy was it pathetic on sunday.
"Ahhhh all stations ah Barwon Heads, Alpha Bravo Charlie 5 miles ah west runway 35".
What the frig does this mean? Care to disclose a/c type, altitude and intentions?, Didn't the all stations call at a CTAF go out with MBZ's and Flightwatch?
It is great that this place can now prosper as an airfield, but someone needs to go down there and educate those that use the aerodrome and alert them to the fact that there are 2 CTAF's and a CTAF(R) / CTR in very close proximity, not to mention weekend warriors from MB/EN going down the coast.
I was up with a mate on sunday that has no idea about aviation at all and even he made a comment like "What the f**k are these guys trying to say?".
I am sure that they have lots of students and weekend warriors flying out of Barwon Heads but i think a CASA would have a bit to say if they were to listen in on a days flying out there."
povopilot. - Making a nomination for airfield with the worst R/T in oz.
P.s i realize that RAA are not all to blame as anyone who flies into Moorabbin will agree, but lining up on 17 at Barwon Heads and having a guy in something resembling a ride-on mower with rotor blades enter 35 and proceed to take off really makes you not want to be around radio-less RAA nutters.
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This is getting more interesting.
FB where are those beers you were getting? By the way I bet they (non equipped RAA's) do not show up on your Avidyne display do they?
J
FB where are those beers you were getting? By the way I bet they (non equipped RAA's) do not show up on your Avidyne display do they?
J
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Yes XXX, I was also on 124.2 and heard that exchange about the drop zone. By the sound of the offending pilot, he didn't have a clue what was going on.
For some reason, I can't help thinking he was on a dual nav too.
For some reason, I can't help thinking he was on a dual nav too.
This is getting more interesting.
FB where are those beers you were getting? By the way I bet they (non equipped RAA's) do not show up on your Avidyne display do they?
FB where are those beers you were getting? By the way I bet they (non equipped RAA's) do not show up on your Avidyne display do they?
No need to 'electronicly' see VFR traffic. I look out the window - unlike some pilots in this country
I do note though, that in the U.S. on a clear day, there was a mid-air collision of two aircraft, and one had a TAS and had identified the opposeing traffic in time to aviod. (the pilot lived) Unforetunatly, the other aircraft (fatal) had turned to a different heading just before impact. It appears to me that instead of looking at a screen and attempting to work out what to do next - somebody should have looked out the window.
If both aircraft had a TAS - would the accident have happened ? maybe we would have had a game of dodgems anyway. Sort of what you get when you walk down the footpath. Remember there is rarely a direct head-on situation in low level flight. i.e. the circuit area.
Jabawocky, I havnt seen the phone number yet ?
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Hi Jaba:
Thanks for that, mate. Obviously, it looks as if I got that part wrong.
I wasn't aware, though, that RAA registered aircraft were allowed to operate above A050 under normal circumstances. For some reason, I thought RAA ops were restricted to below A050 and OCTA.
Learn something new every day.
I am surprised at your claim about only one with a radio. Perhaps you meant Transponder.
I wasn't aware, though, that RAA registered aircraft were allowed to operate above A050 under normal circumstances. For some reason, I thought RAA ops were restricted to below A050 and OCTA.
Learn something new every day.