Powered to Gliding
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Powered to Gliding
With the ever rising costs of powered flying, I'm considering moving across to the world of gliding. I did a glider flight a few years back and enjoyed it thoroughly.
How much training would I need to "convert" from a PPL across to a gliding equivalent?
Are the costs pretty decent still these days?
Cheers
How much training would I need to "convert" from a PPL across to a gliding equivalent?
Are the costs pretty decent still these days?
Cheers
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you wouldnt need much....should take around 10 launches, just a matter of getting used to the towing side and circuit joining.
Prices have gone up a tad over the years like anything else.....but still in the safe side.
Once you start getting into the high performance fibre glass machines like LS4, LS6 etc then it gets expensive for sure but worth the fun though....
Smoothie
Prices have gone up a tad over the years like anything else.....but still in the safe side.
Once you start getting into the high performance fibre glass machines like LS4, LS6 etc then it gets expensive for sure but worth the fun though....
Smoothie
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Having come from gliding to power , the biggest thing you would have to get use to is RUDDERS...
Will need to learn how to recover from spins
And as previously stated go rounds are hard unless at 130kts
Should probably take 3 days to go solo but as with any flying thats when you start to learn to fly.
Im not sure of the clubs in Qld but i know in Vic thereare some that have a week course for around 2000 i think from memory this gives you 65000 feet in tows (not in one go) once you go solo you can use the extra height for consolidation.
Any questions feel free to PM me
Depend on the club you would be able to hire a glider for varying rates depending on the performance or "newness" of the glider
Will need to learn how to recover from spins
And as previously stated go rounds are hard unless at 130kts
Should probably take 3 days to go solo but as with any flying thats when you start to learn to fly.
Im not sure of the clubs in Qld but i know in Vic thereare some that have a week course for around 2000 i think from memory this gives you 65000 feet in tows (not in one go) once you go solo you can use the extra height for consolidation.
Any questions feel free to PM me
Depend on the club you would be able to hire a glider for varying rates depending on the performance or "newness" of the glider
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>How much training would I need to "convert" from a PPL across to a gliding equivalent?
You can't - because strictly speaking there is no equivalent. Gliding is a ton of fun, but expect to jump through a massive amount of hoops before legally being responsible for your own operations. I'm talking at least a 5 hour solo glider flight, and quite a few hours (you need 200 glider hours, and you can count only 10% of your power hours).
If you don't mind an instructor being responsible for your operations, it shouldn't take you a huge length of time. Being able to fly a glider safely is one thing. Being able to use thermals to stay up for hours is another.You will need to demonstrate spin recovery which can be exciting.
Gliding is great but there is a reason why the GFA has such a massive turnover.
**Edit**
Stormynights: I've had to edit this post because for some reason I can't reply to yours. I'm not making the 200 hour figure up, look at the GFA ops manual requirements for level 2 independant ops. The fact that someone like yourself can compete in the nationals yet still technically be responsible to an instructor is insane.
You can't - because strictly speaking there is no equivalent. Gliding is a ton of fun, but expect to jump through a massive amount of hoops before legally being responsible for your own operations. I'm talking at least a 5 hour solo glider flight, and quite a few hours (you need 200 glider hours, and you can count only 10% of your power hours).
If you don't mind an instructor being responsible for your operations, it shouldn't take you a huge length of time. Being able to fly a glider safely is one thing. Being able to use thermals to stay up for hours is another.You will need to demonstrate spin recovery which can be exciting.
Gliding is great but there is a reason why the GFA has such a massive turnover.
**Edit**
Stormynights: I've had to edit this post because for some reason I can't reply to yours. I'm not making the 200 hour figure up, look at the GFA ops manual requirements for level 2 independant ops. The fact that someone like yourself can compete in the nationals yet still technically be responsible to an instructor is insane.
Last edited by superdimona; 7th Oct 2008 at 02:08. Reason: clarify response
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Im sorry but i have to disagree with super D
And to be honest he doesnt know what he\she is talking about
I have competed in National competition with less that 200 hours !!
It comes down to your proficiency
There are some minimums but not as high as he/she makes it sound
Look up the gfa website.
These also are guide lines ...not set in stone
And to be honest he doesnt know what he\she is talking about
I have competed in National competition with less that 200 hours !!
It comes down to your proficiency
There are some minimums but not as high as he/she makes it sound
Look up the gfa website.
These also are guide lines ...not set in stone
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Stormy: I envy your skill. But I'm pretty the nearest instructor was still responsible for your operations.
Check the GFA operations manual. Lets do a quick comparision between a PPL holder and a GFA pilot (who is not an instructor)
PPL: Can take passengers without permission.
GFA: Either requires endorsement + permission from the duty instructor on every occasion, or 150 hours gliding experience. Power time doesn't count(!).
PPL: Responsible for his or her own operations
GFA: Can only be responsible for themselves by getting a "Level 2 Independent Operator" rating. This requires 200 gliding hours, a Silver C and club comittee approval.
PPL: Can buy an aircraft (either by themselves or with friends) and just fly for fun
GFA: All parties have to join a GFA-affiliated club - also you can't make your own club with friends just to fly socially, because every club must have students. Do you just want to have fun soaring, and don't want to instruct in your glider? Too bad, you can't register as a club.
As for " And to be honest he doesnt know what he\she is talking about", well, I invite you to read section 19.2 of your ops manual.
Level 2 Independent Operator
Unlike the Level 1 Independent Operator authority, where club responsibility of independent operations is of primary importance, holders of Level 2 Independent Operator authority are solely responsible for all aspects of their operations when operating independently.
Requirements for initial issue of Level 2 Independent Operator authority are :-
*FAI Silver or higher badge;
*Flight Radiotelephone Operator Licence or GFA Radio Operator logbook endorsement;
*A minimum of 200 hours command time in gliders, which may include powered sailplanes and power-assisted sailplanes. 10% of powered aircraft command time may be counted towards this requirement; <----------
*Club committee approval;
*Oral examination on airways and radio procedures, SAR requirements and accident/incident reporting procedures;
*Be in possession of GFA Airways and Radio Procedures for Glider Pilots and all relevant current aeronautical charts and documentation (e.g. ERSA).
Do you hold a level 2 IO? If not, then according to the GFA, you are not responsible for your operations. Personally I think this extreme stupidity.
Check the GFA operations manual. Lets do a quick comparision between a PPL holder and a GFA pilot (who is not an instructor)
PPL: Can take passengers without permission.
GFA: Either requires endorsement + permission from the duty instructor on every occasion, or 150 hours gliding experience. Power time doesn't count(!).
PPL: Responsible for his or her own operations
GFA: Can only be responsible for themselves by getting a "Level 2 Independent Operator" rating. This requires 200 gliding hours, a Silver C and club comittee approval.
PPL: Can buy an aircraft (either by themselves or with friends) and just fly for fun
GFA: All parties have to join a GFA-affiliated club - also you can't make your own club with friends just to fly socially, because every club must have students. Do you just want to have fun soaring, and don't want to instruct in your glider? Too bad, you can't register as a club.
As for " And to be honest he doesnt know what he\she is talking about", well, I invite you to read section 19.2 of your ops manual.
Level 2 Independent Operator
Unlike the Level 1 Independent Operator authority, where club responsibility of independent operations is of primary importance, holders of Level 2 Independent Operator authority are solely responsible for all aspects of their operations when operating independently.
Requirements for initial issue of Level 2 Independent Operator authority are :-
*FAI Silver or higher badge;
*Flight Radiotelephone Operator Licence or GFA Radio Operator logbook endorsement;
*A minimum of 200 hours command time in gliders, which may include powered sailplanes and power-assisted sailplanes. 10% of powered aircraft command time may be counted towards this requirement; <----------
*Club committee approval;
*Oral examination on airways and radio procedures, SAR requirements and accident/incident reporting procedures;
*Be in possession of GFA Airways and Radio Procedures for Glider Pilots and all relevant current aeronautical charts and documentation (e.g. ERSA).
Do you hold a level 2 IO? If not, then according to the GFA, you are not responsible for your operations. Personally I think this extreme stupidity.
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Erm, you're both right. Sortof!
What SuperD is talking of is being (and I can't remember the exact wording), an independant operator - so you can go and do your own thing as and when you like. that may be an issue for a motorglider, but generally it's rather hard to get a pure glider airborne on your own... so it doesn't matter so much.
FEW glider pilots are independant operators; most normally you operate under the auspices of a club, where the person who's in charge on the day is (often implicitly) authorising your operation. That's completely separate from your abilities to fly off cross country and such.
Now, the bad news - you're reducing your dollar expenditure, but the time expense is much higher. You don't pop down the gliding club to fly for a couple of hours then go home.. figure on a whole day; more if you land out / have to retrieve a mate. Figure also on your fate being in the hands of a lot of other, often older folks who are mostly volunteers. One person may be happy for you to go and do something, the next day someone else not. There aren't so many absolutes, it's a lot more about getting along with the game. Consequently consider the club you join carefully. (and to that end, it's well worth not turning up with too much of an attitude about having a PPL)
Personally, I've made the opposite move - to powered. I still dabble with the gliding, but much less.. Actually piloting the machine isn't too hard. You'll need to find out what feet are for, and towing will be interesting... but you should solo quickly. Moving to cross country flying, and learning to stay up will challenge - and take airborne hours... like powered flying manipulating the controls is a very small part of the picture.
All that said, it's a wonderful way of flying, and one I hope I never give up. Oh, and the vis is a lot better 'cos you sit right up front under a nice bubble canopy instead of behind the noisemaker! Imagine sitting at 15,000ft in glassy smooth air - having got there without an engine
What SuperD is talking of is being (and I can't remember the exact wording), an independant operator - so you can go and do your own thing as and when you like. that may be an issue for a motorglider, but generally it's rather hard to get a pure glider airborne on your own... so it doesn't matter so much.
FEW glider pilots are independant operators; most normally you operate under the auspices of a club, where the person who's in charge on the day is (often implicitly) authorising your operation. That's completely separate from your abilities to fly off cross country and such.
Now, the bad news - you're reducing your dollar expenditure, but the time expense is much higher. You don't pop down the gliding club to fly for a couple of hours then go home.. figure on a whole day; more if you land out / have to retrieve a mate. Figure also on your fate being in the hands of a lot of other, often older folks who are mostly volunteers. One person may be happy for you to go and do something, the next day someone else not. There aren't so many absolutes, it's a lot more about getting along with the game. Consequently consider the club you join carefully. (and to that end, it's well worth not turning up with too much of an attitude about having a PPL)
Personally, I've made the opposite move - to powered. I still dabble with the gliding, but much less.. Actually piloting the machine isn't too hard. You'll need to find out what feet are for, and towing will be interesting... but you should solo quickly. Moving to cross country flying, and learning to stay up will challenge - and take airborne hours... like powered flying manipulating the controls is a very small part of the picture.
All that said, it's a wonderful way of flying, and one I hope I never give up. Oh, and the vis is a lot better 'cos you sit right up front under a nice bubble canopy instead of behind the noisemaker! Imagine sitting at 15,000ft in glassy smooth air - having got there without an engine
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Im not here to blow my own horn.
Maybe the rules have changed since i first got my ratings
Had my I O with less than 75 hours
Like i said i dont believe these rules are set in stone it depends on your knowledge and skill and the opinion of your instructors
I may be wrong
I was once before
Maybe the rules have changed since i first got my ratings
Had my I O with less than 75 hours
Like i said i dont believe these rules are set in stone it depends on your knowledge and skill and the opinion of your instructors
I may be wrong
I was once before
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As far as I'm aware, the MOSP is a legal document and doesn't have any room for negotiation. I'm sure you are thinking of level 1 Independent Operator. This is what most glider pilots who get Independent Operator ratings have.
What that does is removes the need to have a Level 2 instructor present while you go gliding. Unlike a PPL, you are not responsible for your own operations.
From the MOSP section 19.1
In the case of an Independent Operator flying at a site which has a Level 2 Instructor present, Independent Operator privileges do not apply and the Level 2 Instructor's jurisdiction must prevail.
When operating from a site with a resident gliding club, Independent Operators are subject to the requirements of the resident club.
A club issuing Level 1 Independent Operator authority to a person is responsible for that person’s operations, even when the person is operating independently.
To get this rating you basically just need a C cert + approval.
I'm willing to bet that 95% of people learning to glide have no idea they need 200 hours and a silver C before being considered competent enough to be responsible for their own operations. You can get a PPL in a third of the time.
In practical tems most of this is irrelevent - unless you are flying a motorglider. Google my username :-)
What that does is removes the need to have a Level 2 instructor present while you go gliding. Unlike a PPL, you are not responsible for your own operations.
From the MOSP section 19.1
In the case of an Independent Operator flying at a site which has a Level 2 Instructor present, Independent Operator privileges do not apply and the Level 2 Instructor's jurisdiction must prevail.
When operating from a site with a resident gliding club, Independent Operators are subject to the requirements of the resident club.
A club issuing Level 1 Independent Operator authority to a person is responsible for that person’s operations, even when the person is operating independently.
To get this rating you basically just need a C cert + approval.
I'm willing to bet that 95% of people learning to glide have no idea they need 200 hours and a silver C before being considered competent enough to be responsible for their own operations. You can get a PPL in a third of the time.
In practical tems most of this is irrelevent - unless you are flying a motorglider. Google my username :-)
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Gentlemen, I fear that you are getting somewhat too concerned with the fine details! OZZI_PPL merely wished to know what was involved with trying Gliding, being the holder of a PPL.
Wherever he goes to commence Gliding and once having attained solo status and starts to gain experience, no matter what Club or Organisation he attends, unless there is a suitably qualified Instructor present he will not be able to fly! However, most clubs always have an Instructor rostered on days when operations are scheduled and I would think that Independent Operators only days would be very rare!
For the record; I soloed in Gliders in a Mk 4 Kookaburra in January1970, hold a Gold C with two diamonds and am a former Assistant Instructor. (Late 70s)
Wherever he goes to commence Gliding and once having attained solo status and starts to gain experience, no matter what Club or Organisation he attends, unless there is a suitably qualified Instructor present he will not be able to fly! However, most clubs always have an Instructor rostered on days when operations are scheduled and I would think that Independent Operators only days would be very rare!
For the record; I soloed in Gliders in a Mk 4 Kookaburra in January1970, hold a Gold C with two diamonds and am a former Assistant Instructor. (Late 70s)
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I'm with you Pinky, too much jargain in the above posts! We want to encourage people into this wonderful sport - not scare them away 
If you've got some PPL or CPL experience, I would think you could go solo in a days instruction. Probably no more than 3-5hrs I would imagine. Tows to 2000' these days in a club environment go for around $25-30 (or $7-10 for a winch launch), and hiring a glider at my club is only 60cents per minute with the instructor costing zilch. Most clubs also have a max hire for the day, at mine it's only $80!
Gliding has helped me immensly over the years in the commercial game, saved me probably $10,000 in my training costs. The reason: from day one I had all the hours required to sit my CPL flight test, I just had to learn how to operate that small smelly engine up the front!
go_soaring! instead
If you've got some PPL or CPL experience, I would think you could go solo in a days instruction. Probably no more than 3-5hrs I would imagine. Tows to 2000' these days in a club environment go for around $25-30 (or $7-10 for a winch launch), and hiring a glider at my club is only 60cents per minute with the instructor costing zilch. Most clubs also have a max hire for the day, at mine it's only $80!
Gliding has helped me immensly over the years in the commercial game, saved me probably $10,000 in my training costs. The reason: from day one I had all the hours required to sit my CPL flight test, I just had to learn how to operate that small smelly engine up the front!
go_soaring! instead
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Thanks all for the replies and useful information.
The only part which I have concern with, is the issue of availability. I work most weekends and therefore would be looking to do my gliding during the week.
Other than that, I think I will head out to a club in the next few weeks and poke around. Maybe try a TIF or something to get the feel for it.
Thanks again.
OZZI
The only part which I have concern with, is the issue of availability. I work most weekends and therefore would be looking to do my gliding during the week.
Other than that, I think I will head out to a club in the next few weeks and poke around. Maybe try a TIF or something to get the feel for it.
Thanks again.
OZZI
If you've got some PPL or CPL experience, I would think you could go solo in a days instruction. Probably no more than 3-5hrs I would imagine
Going solo in a glider, for the holder of a PPL/CPL is more about the number of launches and landings than it is about hours of training. As a reasonably experienced PPL, I soloed in a Blanik after 50 min training. The highly experienced CFI at the local flying school, determined to not be outdone by me pulled it off in a bit over 40 min training. However you can pack a bunch of training into an hour in a glider - and we had the advantage of having one of the best instructors in the business as well.
Having soloed, I found the gliding club system far too demanding of my scarce recreation time (as pointed out by someone in an earlier post) and I didn't bother going any further with it - I just stuck with doing sessions of aerotowing for the club.
Dr
Last edited by ForkTailedDrKiller; 10th Oct 2008 at 02:07.
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I dont know about Qld, sorry
But if you can get a week off and dont mind going to Vic i know the club there that operates mid-week over summer
Maybe Go-soaring knows more about QLD
But if you can get a week off and dont mind going to Vic i know the club there that operates mid-week over summer
Maybe Go-soaring knows more about QLD
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Operations that I'm aware of..
Kingaroy Gliding Club (Kingaroy Soaring Club - Queensland Australia): First Thursday of each month to that Sunday. The following weekend is standard. The third Friday of each month to that Sunday. Then the last weekend in the month as standard.
Darling Downs Soaring Club (Darling Downs Soaring Club - Welcome): Weekend operations only, though often organise something on public holidays.
Warwick Gliding Club (http://www.warwickgliding.org.au/): Only weekend operations, though they're now trialing the a long weekend soaring from the last Friday through to that Sunday of the month.
Caboolture Gliding Club: A great place to learn to glide so I've been told. Mid-week operations. Though limited to local soaring there. If the soloing pilot is keen to extend his/her skills, they often move onto the DDSC or the KRY Gliding Club.
Boonah Gliding Club (Welcome to the Boonah Gliding Club): They definately operate on weekends, though seem to think that they also fly mid-week if arranged or in general. As their website suggests, call them for more details under the learn to fly link.
FTDK is right, sometimes all it requires is under an hour of instruction. As you know, you already know how to fly an a/c. It's just a matter of going through the emergency scenario's, cct planning and soaring basics.
Thankfully now your not just dumped at the solo stage to learn for yourself. The gliding movement has identified the need for Coaches to help you fine tune your skills after Solo. Generally these coaches are used for increasing your Cross-Country speeds and distances, though they're also happy to help with your thermalling skills etc to help you enjoy the sport more!
Any questions, ask away!
go_soaring! instead
P.s. I've got a mate (600hrs gliding prior) who went solo in a C172 in 36mins! How's that for crazy!!
Kingaroy Gliding Club (Kingaroy Soaring Club - Queensland Australia): First Thursday of each month to that Sunday. The following weekend is standard. The third Friday of each month to that Sunday. Then the last weekend in the month as standard.
Darling Downs Soaring Club (Darling Downs Soaring Club - Welcome): Weekend operations only, though often organise something on public holidays.
Warwick Gliding Club (http://www.warwickgliding.org.au/): Only weekend operations, though they're now trialing the a long weekend soaring from the last Friday through to that Sunday of the month.
Caboolture Gliding Club: A great place to learn to glide so I've been told. Mid-week operations. Though limited to local soaring there. If the soloing pilot is keen to extend his/her skills, they often move onto the DDSC or the KRY Gliding Club.
Boonah Gliding Club (Welcome to the Boonah Gliding Club): They definately operate on weekends, though seem to think that they also fly mid-week if arranged or in general. As their website suggests, call them for more details under the learn to fly link.
FTDK is right, sometimes all it requires is under an hour of instruction. As you know, you already know how to fly an a/c. It's just a matter of going through the emergency scenario's, cct planning and soaring basics.
Thankfully now your not just dumped at the solo stage to learn for yourself. The gliding movement has identified the need for Coaches to help you fine tune your skills after Solo. Generally these coaches are used for increasing your Cross-Country speeds and distances, though they're also happy to help with your thermalling skills etc to help you enjoy the sport more!
Any questions, ask away!
go_soaring! instead
P.s. I've got a mate (600hrs gliding prior) who went solo in a C172 in 36mins! How's that for crazy!!
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Good info,
Sounds like Caboolture might be the place to go. I did a glider TIF out of there a few years back. Very busy spot!
36 mins to solo is very impressive.........
Cheers
Sounds like Caboolture might be the place to go. I did a glider TIF out of there a few years back. Very busy spot!
36 mins to solo is very impressive.........
Cheers
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Comparing power flying to gliding is in many ways like
comparing motor-boating to sailing.
Just about anyone can steer a motor-boat and make it go where they want.
Sailing a yacht, whether it be for pleasure or competition, requires more skills.
A glider pilot, on average, will generally have a more refined knowledge of the weather, better knowledge of aerodynamics, better decision making skills and a better lookout than a power pilot. They wont know the best way to start a hot wet lycoming but thats about it.
Gliding rewards the better pilot by better flights.
OOW cpla cplh GLIDER PILOT
p.s. you wouldnt believe how many airline pilots fly gliders in their spare time!
comparing motor-boating to sailing.
Just about anyone can steer a motor-boat and make it go where they want.
Sailing a yacht, whether it be for pleasure or competition, requires more skills.
A glider pilot, on average, will generally have a more refined knowledge of the weather, better knowledge of aerodynamics, better decision making skills and a better lookout than a power pilot. They wont know the best way to start a hot wet lycoming but thats about it.
Gliding rewards the better pilot by better flights.
OOW cpla cplh GLIDER PILOT
p.s. you wouldnt believe how many airline pilots fly gliders in their spare time!
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this is footage is taken from my hang glider at Fairhaven Vic on the great ocean road.
Hang gliding is very cheap! $2000 9 day pilot course (included accommodation), $3000 second hand glider/harness, $350 HGFA fees annually and that's it.
YouTube - Moyes Sonic hang glider flight, great ocean road australia.
Hang gliding is very cheap! $2000 9 day pilot course (included accommodation), $3000 second hand glider/harness, $350 HGFA fees annually and that's it.
YouTube - Moyes Sonic hang glider flight, great ocean road australia.