SID Outside Twr Hrs

[top operator]

Been looking too long with no joy. What are the rules about flying a SID out of aerodrome outside tower hours, can you turn at the 600' of the SID contrary to the cct pattern or do you need to abide to the 500' above cct altitude before turning contrary to the cct?

Referance would be great thanks.

[tobzalp]

Tower procedures during Tower hours, CTAF procedures during CTAF.

Simple.

[Victor India]

top operator,

AIP describes the situation you're asking about in ENR 1.1 para 59.2.

Here's the link:

http://www.airservices.gov.au/public.../1_1_1-116.pdf

The short answer is no, the normal circuit departure rules don't strictly apply if IFR departing via a SID from a CTAF. Of course, if you are IFR in VMC and there is lots of circuit traffic, you could elect to turn with the circuit direction and depart over head. Or just broadcast your intentions to fly the SID on CTAF. Also, for IFR traffic purposes, ATC should be advised if you're flying a SID and won't be established on track within 5nm of the aerodrome

If you really need to fly the SID, you are probably in IMC in which case circuit traffic isn't a player anyway.

VI

[Lasiorhinus]

Originally Posted by Victor India

Or just broadcast your intentions to fly the SID on CTAF.

If you do do this, please explain what this will mean - VFR-only pilots with no knowledge of the SID will not have a clue where this will mean you will be tracking.

[Victor India]

On a similar topic, what is the feeling on the validity of using a SID (Radar) in similar circumstances, eg OCTA from an airfield which during tower (Class C) hours uses SID (Radar)?

I have always been of the belief that one would need radar control service (ie in CTA) to fly such a departure. Recently, I have had a few colleagues try to convince me that SID (Radar) can be flown OCTA. Their belief is that any heading could be flown from the turn point and terrain clearance is assured provided the minimum specified gradient is flown.

I would have said "bull*hit" until someone showed me the Canberra SID (Radar) plate. Here's the link (and for info, outside Canberra tower hours the overlying CTA has is LL8500):

http://www.airservices.gov.au/public...CBDP01-116.pdf

Anyone have a reference which allows this (in AIP/Jepp), or other examples?

Cheers,

VI

[ITCZ]

Good discussion

Originally Posted by Victor India

...until someone showed me the Canberra SID (Radar) plate....

Red herring.

Did your mate follow the 5000* all the way to the NAP REF?

That Canberra Radar SID is for use by aircraft above and below 5,700kg.

The 5000* directs to a Note that directs you to Noise Abatement Procedures.

The YSCB Noise Abatement Procedures page 4 specifies a local procedure for aircraft >5700kg to track 353 or 168 until 5000' for Noise Abatement when no radar service available.

There are 23x Radar SID procedures in Australia. I can find no similar instructions for Radar SIDS at other part-time TWR aerodromes.

I have always been of the belief that one would need radar control service (ie in CTA) to fly such a departure.

Stick to your guns. You are right.

[ITCZ]

If you really need to fly the SID, you are probably in IMC in which case circuit traffic isn't a player anyway.

Or Night VMC procedures departure out of a 'black hole' where terrain is a consideration, e.g. YBAS RWY 12 or 30 departing to the NW, N or NE.

You could use CTAF procedures when the TWR is closed, and ensure..

• runway heading until above circling altitude and circuit altitude or circuit altitude+500 for contrary turn,
• provided that you don't fly out of the 7500m surveyed splay, then
• turn to intercept track by 5nm from aerodrome (not 5dme),
• remain inside circling area until above 10nm MSA,
• remain inside 10nm until above 25nm MSA or established on track above LSALT.
• and have a similar plan for terrain clearance for EFATO

Or you could fly the procedural SID and brief the company Engine Out SID. That is easier for me in my aeroplane.

Lasiorhinus: understood, make plain language broadcast on CTAF

[Victor India]

ITCZ,

Thanks for your ideas... looking a bit further into it: have you any idea why the Canberra RW35 procedure we're talking about directs a track of 353M until 5000 AMSL when the 25nm MSA is 4600AMSL?

If I was departing YSCB using the RW35 OCTG I could turn at 4600' (or as low as 4600-965=3635' to ensure 35' terrain clearance) if I desired.

VI

Edit : I guess it is for avoidance of the noise sensitive areas but the RW35 SIDs normally restrict the turn until 7000AMSL...

[ITCZ]

have you any idea why the Canberra RW35 procedure we're talking about directs a track of 353M until 5000 AMSL when the 25nm MSA is 4600AMSL?

Yes. See YSCB Noise Abatement Procedures page 4, link given in previous post.

4600' is for terrain clearance.

5000' is for noise abatement.

If I was departing YSCB using the RW35 OCTG I could turn at 4600'

If you were in a Baron or a Titan, yes.

If you were in a >5700kg aeroplane like a Metro 23 - No. The Noise Abatement requirement is more restrictive than the terrain clearance.

It might be on a different AIP page, but the AIP assumes that pilots can read and understand English, and will take the trouble to follow links and directions, even if they are on another page!

If you are not yet flying >5700kg, you might not be briefed on noise abatement procedures or the principles behind them.

(or as low as 4600-965=3635' to ensure 35' terrain clearance) if I desired.

Victor, you are scaring me!

Your reference to 35' suggests that you are familiar with, and probably operating your aeroplane to CA0 20.7.1B

If that is the case, perhaps you should take a very close look at that CAO before you start making ad-hoc decisions to clear obstacles by 35'.

Paragraphs 12.1 and 12A are normally satisfied by an operator drawing up Regulated Takeoff Weight charts and Escape Procedures (engine-out SIDs). A job that poses a challenge to a trained performance engineer!

Starts to get a bit tricky having this discussion on a bulletin board, and maybe I misunderstood your remark, but I would be planning to achieve an MSA or LSALT 'minus nothing', not -500' or -965'.