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Private Flights - Passengers

Old 30th Sep 2008, 07:51
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Question Private Flights - Passengers

I got invited on a jaunt this weekend via aircraft. On discussion I was told that it was a private operation which begs the question -
What is the maximum number of passengers permitted on a PRIVATE CATEGORY flight.
CAR 7a appears to put a lid on 6 POB.

Would this mean that a 402 or similar be limited to 5 passengers for a PVT op ?

Thoughts ?

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Old 30th Sep 2008, 08:05
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I think you have answered your own question mate.
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Old 30th Sep 2008, 09:04
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(7A) An aircraft that carries persons on a flight, otherwise than in accordance with a fixed schedule between terminals, is employed in a private operation if:
(a) public notice of the flight has not been given by any form of public advertisement or announcement; and
(b) the number of persons on the flight, including the operating crew, does not exceed 6; and
(c) no payment is made for the services of the operating crew; and
(d) the persons on the flight, including the operating crew, share equally in the costs of the flight; and
(e) no payment is required for a person on the flight other than a payment under paragraph (d).
I don't think CAR 7A excludes carriage of more than six passengers on a private flight, rather confirms that a flight which complies with (a) to (e) above, is deemed to be a private flight.

I am aware of a number of private individuals, companies (past and present) and Government air wings which operate in the private category (no AOC), with aircraft capacities well in excess of six POB. (Examples being the 12 POB Cessna 208B Caravan and 8 to 10 POB Beech King Air 200, a number of which are owned by individuals and companies and operate in the private category.)
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Old 30th Sep 2008, 09:08
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I was always under the impression that a PPL holder can only fly an aircraft in command with a maximum of 6 pax but I could be wrong.
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Old 30th Sep 2008, 09:10
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No limit on the number of Pax on a private category flight. there IS a limit on the number operating on a COST SHARING BASIS. You can fill an A380 and operate it privately if you don't charge anything (I remember Niki Lauda doing that with a 767 several years ago), but there is a limit when money changes hands.

On this "Jaunt" did everyone (including the pilot) contribute to the cost?
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Old 30th Sep 2008, 09:46
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The owner (and pilot) will pay for the trip without expecting anything in return (at least from me ;-) ).

It is interesting that a number of individuals and companies have operated PVT category as it looks very 'grey area' to me. Anybody had a definitive response from CASA about this ?

If there was an incident, would the insurance Co use it as an excuse to avoid payment?? Don't want to leave Mrs Fission out in the cold.

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Old 30th Sep 2008, 09:59
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This was done a while back and everyone came to the conclusion that since a recent change (within a couple of years) that no more than 6 was permitted no matter what. Can someone with good searching skills do a search? (I think)
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Old 30th Sep 2008, 10:11
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When I was on parachuting ops four years ago they were 'private ops' and more than six pax.
have the rules changed with respect to para ops? If not then I think there is no limit.
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Old 30th Sep 2008, 10:14
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I emailed CASA about something similar in 05/06. Basically asked "can I fill a chieftain on private ops".

Answer was yes, but you can only cost share with 6 or less people, otherwise you have to pay for the whole flight. Remember most corporate jets run as private

If he's paying for the whole thing then I wouldn't think it'd be a huge problem. Mind you, I'm not CASA so it may be worth him checking for himself
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Old 30th Sep 2008, 10:21
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I have just done CPL air law and i am definately under the impression that for a flight to be classified as PVT it must satify the CAR that says the number of persons on the flight, including the operating crew, does not exceed 6.

However going over my Bob Tait book he says that this is only the case for a cost sharing flight?. If the flight is not a cost sharing flight, then what is it and who is paying? doesn't this make it a commercial op?

I hope someone can clarify this. Because I get the feeling i probably should know!

povopilot.
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Old 30th Sep 2008, 11:34
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Ok, the reg that i've always quoted in reference to this question is from the interpretation section at the front of the CARs:
7 (d) [p30 of the online regs]
an aircraft that is flying or operating for the purpose of, or in the
course of:
(i) the personal transportation of the owner of the aircraft;
(ii) aerial spotting where no remuneration is received by the
pilot or the owner of the aircraft or by any person or
organisation on whose behalf the spotting is conducted;
(iii) agricultural operations on land owned and occupied by the
owner of the aircraft;
(iv) aerial photography where no remuneration is received by
the pilot or the owner of the aircraft or by any person or
organisation on whose behalf the photography is
conducted;
(v) the carriage of persons or the carriage of goods without a
charge for the carriage being made other than the carriage,
for the purposes of trade, of goods being the property of the
pilot, the owner or the hirer of the aircraft;

(va) the carriage of persons in accordance with subregulation
(7A);
(vi) the carriage of goods otherwise than for the purposes of
trade;
(vii) conversion training for the purpose of endorsement of an
additional type or category of aircraft in a pilot licence; or
(viii) any other activity of a kind substantially similar to any of
those specified in subparagraphs (i) to (vi) (inclusive);
shall be taken to be employed in private operations.

So, any number of pax can be carried under a private category as long as they're not being sold into slavery.
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Old 30th Sep 2008, 14:15
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Now that is funny
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Old 30th Sep 2008, 15:00
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Old 1st Oct 2008, 00:59
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This subject was done to death a couple of months ago (go to: http://www.pprune.org/d-g-general-av...mercial-4.html)

If you go to page 4 of the above link, one can see that Creampuff has answered the question quite eloquently by proving that there was no 6 passenger limit for private operations. It all just comes down to learning how to read and interpret the regulations.
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Old 1st Oct 2008, 04:48
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Spent 27 years flying private ops, 2 crew and max of 12 passengers, in the early years it was single pilot and up to 14 pax.
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Old 1st Oct 2008, 05:58
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Good one 'BK' Thsoe where the days when women where real women wearing real dresses. Now it's pin stripped suits, short hair & atitude!

As for pvt ops? Well I was under the impression that it was max 6 pob & this was derived from most pvt ops where considered in the early days as SE six seaters. But as has been said it's the way you read the regs



CW
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Old 1st Oct 2008, 06:43
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CW, but if you read the regs there are 2 parts on private ops. The first one, which Fission brought up, defines what a private op is. The second part, under the hdg "Private Operations" states that

(7A) An aircraft that carries persons on a flight, otherwise than in accordance with a fixed schedule between terminals, is employed in a private operation if:
(a) public notice of the flight has not been given by any form of public advertisement or announcement; and
(b) the number of persons on the flight, including the operating crew, does not exceed 6; and
(c) no payment is made for the services of the operating crew; and
(d) the persons on the flight, including the operating crew, share equally in the costs of the flight; and
(e) no payment is required for a person on the flight other than a payment under paragraph (d).
I'm personally inclined to think that this is just stating that this type can also be counted as private, however if someone knows a FOI perhaps they can give a definitive answer?
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Old 1st Oct 2008, 06:54
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Having read both threads I gave CASA a call to clarify the Regs.

If none of the passengers are paying for the flight (in any way) then it can be deemed a PVT operation and not subject to the requirements of an AOC.

There is no limit on passengers.

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Old 1st Oct 2008, 07:02
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AFAIK the A380 proving flights are "pvt ops".
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Old 1st Oct 2008, 09:36
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"As for pvt ops? Well I was under the impression that it was max 6 pob & this was derived from most pvt ops where considered in the early days as SE six seaters. But as has been said it's the way you read the regs"
Wrong. If you are relying on "the way you read the regs" you should not hold a Commercial Pilot License.

Having re read the relevant Regulations, there is no limit on the number of passengers which may be carried on a Private Operation. There is also no restriction on the type of aircraft which may be utilised in a Private Operation.
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