Millions of dollars secretly lost by Airservices
Thread Starter
Millions of dollars secretly lost by Airservices
This is a rumour network, and there have been rumours around for many months of another Airservices fiasco. Rather than following the US system of WAAS (Wide Area Augmentation System), a number of years ago Airservices decided to go down a special route known as GRAS (Ground Based Regional Augmentation System).
It appears that rather than let others take the design risk, Airservices decided to enter into an agreement with a multinational company, using our industry money, to design the equipment here in Australia. The plan was that it would be sold all around the world – a fortune would be made, and that would be used to reduce the industry’s charges.
By the look of it, it hasn’t quite worked out that way. There are rumours that tens of millions of dollars have been wasted on this project, and there are a number of other projects to go the same way.
In an answer to a question asked by Mr Bob Brown in the Senate (see here), Senator Conroy stated:
Note there is no mention of the actual figure that has been lost. Can anyone find this out?
The money lost to our industry is money that could have been spent in training additional air traffic controllers, even in manning a tower at Avalon, or providing one at Ayers Rock or Broome.
The performance bonuses will still go ahead regardless. These people should all move to the Macquarie Bank or to the United States to work for one of the banking organisations there.
Now for ADS-B - I wonder when we will hear about that write-off and how much it will be?
It appears that rather than let others take the design risk, Airservices decided to enter into an agreement with a multinational company, using our industry money, to design the equipment here in Australia. The plan was that it would be sold all around the world – a fortune would be made, and that would be used to reduce the industry’s charges.
By the look of it, it hasn’t quite worked out that way. There are rumours that tens of millions of dollars have been wasted on this project, and there are a number of other projects to go the same way.
In an answer to a question asked by Mr Bob Brown in the Senate (see here), Senator Conroy stated:
Airservices Australia has advised that the Ground based Regional Augmentation System (GRAS) project has ceased. The discontinuation of the GRAS project will result in a write-off which will be reflected in the end of year financial results.
The money lost to our industry is money that could have been spent in training additional air traffic controllers, even in manning a tower at Avalon, or providing one at Ayers Rock or Broome.
The performance bonuses will still go ahead regardless. These people should all move to the Macquarie Bank or to the United States to work for one of the banking organisations there.
Now for ADS-B - I wonder when we will hear about that write-off and how much it will be?
Thread Starter
And remember if you are running a business and you have a "dual" till and you put your losses in the second till then you actually havn't lost anything at all.
Is Bondy advising AsA?
Is Bondy advising AsA?
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Avalon Airport
Dick,
can i ask you a question.
Some of your proposals/ideas i agree with but,
Why have you been so up in arms regarding Avalon CTAF. Hundreds of planes including jetstar, qantas 747s, 767s for maintenance etc go in without problems and i cant recall any near misses at all or anything out of the ordinary going on here. This is just in light of your post and recent media coverage few months ago ie ACA etc where you advocated they had to immediately put a tower there. Dick, I fly out of Bankstown with a ppl just near where you fly your jet because ive taxied just behind you and to be honest id rather be flying into avalon with a ctaf then into bankstown where we have excellent atc but unfortunately alot of very incompetent, badly taught pilots- both student and others. an example- 1 of a foreign pilot - basair i think it was approaching bankstown for 29R at 1000 ft just near prospect, I was flying out of 29R and narrowly missed him- Tower obviously couldnt fix this problem of seperating traffic as they have no Surface radar like YSSY. Its things like this that cause problems within ctafs, people not flying correct procedures, proper circuits etc.
Matt
can i ask you a question.
Some of your proposals/ideas i agree with but,
Why have you been so up in arms regarding Avalon CTAF. Hundreds of planes including jetstar, qantas 747s, 767s for maintenance etc go in without problems and i cant recall any near misses at all or anything out of the ordinary going on here. This is just in light of your post and recent media coverage few months ago ie ACA etc where you advocated they had to immediately put a tower there. Dick, I fly out of Bankstown with a ppl just near where you fly your jet because ive taxied just behind you and to be honest id rather be flying into avalon with a ctaf then into bankstown where we have excellent atc but unfortunately alot of very incompetent, badly taught pilots- both student and others. an example- 1 of a foreign pilot - basair i think it was approaching bankstown for 29R at 1000 ft just near prospect, I was flying out of 29R and narrowly missed him- Tower obviously couldnt fix this problem of seperating traffic as they have no Surface radar like YSSY. Its things like this that cause problems within ctafs, people not flying correct procedures, proper circuits etc.
Matt
This is a typical Australian phenomenon. The cost of WAAS is known. The equipment is readily available, and it's a known proven system.
But Oh No! We can reinvent the wheel here and do it on the cheap, avoiding all the pitfalls involved in research and development that seem to beleaguer every development project ever started, but this one is different! And we must do it because Australia has unique requirements!
I have heard this bull**** so many times over the years that it's just not funny, and of course when we fund these "reinventing the wheel" projects, it means we then don't have funds for the really unique projects where we might both surprise and delight the rest of the world.
The saddest and most stupid part of the whole thing is that by now just about every $200 GPS sold is WAAS enabled.
What happens next is also predictable. Industry and agriculture will discover, if they haven't already, that the second or third (or is it fourth?) generation of GPS enabled equipment is going to require WAAS availability to get full performance, so eventually industry and agriculture will demand that WAAS be provided, and it will, making the local system an orphan.
Ferchrissake, fund WAAS and put us out of our misery.
But Oh No! We can reinvent the wheel here and do it on the cheap, avoiding all the pitfalls involved in research and development that seem to beleaguer every development project ever started, but this one is different! And we must do it because Australia has unique requirements!
I have heard this bull**** so many times over the years that it's just not funny, and of course when we fund these "reinventing the wheel" projects, it means we then don't have funds for the really unique projects where we might both surprise and delight the rest of the world.
The saddest and most stupid part of the whole thing is that by now just about every $200 GPS sold is WAAS enabled.
What happens next is also predictable. Industry and agriculture will discover, if they haven't already, that the second or third (or is it fourth?) generation of GPS enabled equipment is going to require WAAS availability to get full performance, so eventually industry and agriculture will demand that WAAS be provided, and it will, making the local system an orphan.
Ferchrissake, fund WAAS and put us out of our misery.
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money lost by Airservices in a recent currency hedging fiasco.
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Bob,
I have heard rumours during the last week. Don't know if its true or not though.
If you're looking for ATCs to defend these Aviation bureaucrats, you'll be waiting for eternity.
You might want to check out the annual reports and see some of the exposure we have. From the 05/06 Annual Report Financial Notes on page 97
CROSS BORDER FINANCING ARRANGEMENT.
During the 2003 and 2004 years, Airservices Australia completed a cross-border financing arrangement
in relation to equipment associated with The Australian Advanced Air Traffic System (TAAATS) and radar
systems. The arrangement is for 22.5 years and expires in January 2026.
Airservices Australia has provided certain guarantees and indemnities to various participants in the
transaction. If certain events occur, Airservices Australia could be liable to make additional substantial
payments. The future underlying exposure against which these guarantees and indemnities have been
provided are up to a maximum of US$758m (2005: US$770m). At the time of the transaction, expert external
advisors considered that unless exceptional, extreme and highly unlikely circumstances arise, Airservices
Australia would not be required to make a significant payment under these guarantees and indemnities.
Management regularly monitors the factors affecting this transaction on an ongoing basis.
I have no idea what it is about, it just looked like a really big number to me. I'm don't know who the 'expert external advisors' are either. Merchant bankers?
I wonder if they are handing out the golden parachutes yet?
I have heard rumours during the last week. Don't know if its true or not though.
If you're looking for ATCs to defend these Aviation bureaucrats, you'll be waiting for eternity.
You might want to check out the annual reports and see some of the exposure we have. From the 05/06 Annual Report Financial Notes on page 97
CROSS BORDER FINANCING ARRANGEMENT.
During the 2003 and 2004 years, Airservices Australia completed a cross-border financing arrangement
in relation to equipment associated with The Australian Advanced Air Traffic System (TAAATS) and radar
systems. The arrangement is for 22.5 years and expires in January 2026.
Airservices Australia has provided certain guarantees and indemnities to various participants in the
transaction. If certain events occur, Airservices Australia could be liable to make additional substantial
payments. The future underlying exposure against which these guarantees and indemnities have been
provided are up to a maximum of US$758m (2005: US$770m). At the time of the transaction, expert external
advisors considered that unless exceptional, extreme and highly unlikely circumstances arise, Airservices
Australia would not be required to make a significant payment under these guarantees and indemnities.
Management regularly monitors the factors affecting this transaction on an ongoing basis.
I have no idea what it is about, it just looked like a really big number to me. I'm don't know who the 'expert external advisors' are either. Merchant bankers?
I wonder if they are handing out the golden parachutes yet?
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I don't think WAAS is on the cards. Didn't they move the Pacific satelite or something? I recall we didn't support the Japanese satelite either so there is nothing for it but for Airservices to launch their own. I wonder what till that would come out of?
Thread Starter
Matt, thanks for the post. When you consider that at Bankstown there have only been two midair collisions in 40 years, it is indeed extraordinarily safe. I’m positive there would have been far more midair collisions – or more likely collisions on or close to the runway – if air traffic control was not present.
From my experience flying around the world, Bankstown is an example of air traffic control being as good as any air traffic control anywhere. The procedures (which we call GAAP procedures) were copied from Van Nuys airport in the United States and in my view provide the best balance of efficiency, traffic movements, cost and safety.
Avalon is an interesting experiment. We will never know how long we can get away without air traffic control at an airport with 1.5 million passenger movements per year until an accident happens. Maybe it will be another few years, maybe it will be another few months.
When you consider that to man the tower at Avalon and use Bankstown-like procedures would probably cost less than 30 cents per passenger. I believe it is an effective way of spending our safety dollars.
If you would like to come flying in the Citation some time, give me a call on 0408 640 221 and I will arrange it.
From my experience flying around the world, Bankstown is an example of air traffic control being as good as any air traffic control anywhere. The procedures (which we call GAAP procedures) were copied from Van Nuys airport in the United States and in my view provide the best balance of efficiency, traffic movements, cost and safety.
Avalon is an interesting experiment. We will never know how long we can get away without air traffic control at an airport with 1.5 million passenger movements per year until an accident happens. Maybe it will be another few years, maybe it will be another few months.
When you consider that to man the tower at Avalon and use Bankstown-like procedures would probably cost less than 30 cents per passenger. I believe it is an effective way of spending our safety dollars.
If you would like to come flying in the Citation some time, give me a call on 0408 640 221 and I will arrange it.
Folks,
Is this amazing --- or what!!
Not really, just depressingly predictable. Remember MLS, remember the home grown radar (before TAAAAATS --- aka Eurocat) that could track trucks on the Geelong Rd., but lost a 747 in the holding patterns around Melbourne.
The fact remains that a successor to ILS is needed, and a successor that gets down to Cat 111C (LAAS), and at least Cat.1 (WAAS) for the Regionals and the mining provinces. Cat 111C (eventually) will be quite possible with the LAAS version of WAAS, which is much like GRAS, except that it is a public signal, not subscription only.
WAAS??? A little bird says that WAAS is dead, because a LAAS will cover 97% of the travelling public, ie: The heavily trafficked east coast routes, and other inter-capitals arrival routes.
A WAAS deal would be available with Japan (ever given thought to why they think they need it??) --- but how would Airservice charge for it ??? They can't.
This may be so, but it only covers maybe 10% of the aircraft (not aircraft movements). If this same logic was applied to, say, roads, we would probably have no sealed roads west of the Blue Mountains – given the % of the population living in and around the big coastal cities, probably 97% of cars and trucks are in these areas.
In short, the approach to WAAS is: Sod Rural and Regional and Remote Australia for modern technology, they get by only with mostly inferior communications generally, (hi-speed broadband, what broadband ?- notwithstanding "election promises"), so why should Rural, Regional and Remote Australia expect to get access to (in national terms) cheap precision approach aids??
Sadly, the "we can do it better" brigade at Airservices, it seems to me, were probably aided and abetted by the Airservices disinterest in anything for which they can't send you a bill, and WAAS (unlike Galileo) has no provision for "subscription only" precision signals.
Perhaps we ( or the Minister, or the Treasurer, in these straightened times) should ask Dick Smith's new best friend, Mike Taylor, he's the head of the "Department", under which all this has transpired.
Tootle pip!!
Is this amazing --- or what!!
Not really, just depressingly predictable. Remember MLS, remember the home grown radar (before TAAAAATS --- aka Eurocat) that could track trucks on the Geelong Rd., but lost a 747 in the holding patterns around Melbourne.
The fact remains that a successor to ILS is needed, and a successor that gets down to Cat 111C (LAAS), and at least Cat.1 (WAAS) for the Regionals and the mining provinces. Cat 111C (eventually) will be quite possible with the LAAS version of WAAS, which is much like GRAS, except that it is a public signal, not subscription only.
WAAS??? A little bird says that WAAS is dead, because a LAAS will cover 97% of the travelling public, ie: The heavily trafficked east coast routes, and other inter-capitals arrival routes.
A WAAS deal would be available with Japan (ever given thought to why they think they need it??) --- but how would Airservice charge for it ??? They can't.
This may be so, but it only covers maybe 10% of the aircraft (not aircraft movements). If this same logic was applied to, say, roads, we would probably have no sealed roads west of the Blue Mountains – given the % of the population living in and around the big coastal cities, probably 97% of cars and trucks are in these areas.
In short, the approach to WAAS is: Sod Rural and Regional and Remote Australia for modern technology, they get by only with mostly inferior communications generally, (hi-speed broadband, what broadband ?- notwithstanding "election promises"), so why should Rural, Regional and Remote Australia expect to get access to (in national terms) cheap precision approach aids??
Sadly, the "we can do it better" brigade at Airservices, it seems to me, were probably aided and abetted by the Airservices disinterest in anything for which they can't send you a bill, and WAAS (unlike Galileo) has no provision for "subscription only" precision signals.
Perhaps we ( or the Minister, or the Treasurer, in these straightened times) should ask Dick Smith's new best friend, Mike Taylor, he's the head of the "Department", under which all this has transpired.
Tootle pip!!
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GRAS was always a bit of an errrm experiment 
it was no secret though
WAAS is the best option not only for aviation
do not confuse this with ADS-B though
as for the other rumour
as Airtags suggests 
it was no secret thoughWAAS is the best option not only for aviation
do not confuse this with ADS-B though
as for the other rumour
as Airtags suggests
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It depends on whether the decision was taken 'early' when perhaps the technology was determined to not be able to deliver what was needed. To push on further would have then been millions of dollars lost!
Have you a credible source for the amount of dollars involved?
Have you a credible source for the amount of dollars involved?
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I'm with Dick on this one, if the rumour is true.
Wasn't a fair amount of money invested in a number of trials of GRAS. I seem to remember an article regarding QANTAS testing of GRAS at Mascot, and another on a tour to Frankfurt (no doubt first class) where Lufthansa did the same deal. Or am I wrong and was that GBAS?
If this expense, in addition to development, has now been flushed then who actually accepts responsibility?
Wasn't a fair amount of money invested in a number of trials of GRAS. I seem to remember an article regarding QANTAS testing of GRAS at Mascot, and another on a tour to Frankfurt (no doubt first class) where Lufthansa did the same deal. Or am I wrong and was that GBAS?
If this expense, in addition to development, has now been flushed then who actually accepts responsibility?
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Lots of people in the know were saying the same Chuck, the answer to why they looked at it in the first place will make for interesting reading 
some will be disappointed though, as it is not what Mr Smith would like it to be
some will be disappointed though, as it is not what Mr Smith would like it to be