U206 missing - Northern NSW
Capt Fathom
You have obviously missed the sarcasm in my quote. I do know that no one is invincible.
My second quote. That is certainly not what i would do. That is sadly what he has done. Read my post below my first one.( #58 ) Then you may understand what i am trying to say.
My second quote. That is certainly not what i would do. That is sadly what he has done. Read my post below my first one.( #58 ) Then you may understand what i am trying to say.
Last edited by sms777; 17th Sep 2008 at 12:43. Reason: indicating exact posting
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Framer
I'm certainly not saying that 100 hours is experianced.
What I was saying is that when I made that post no one on here knew what sort of hours he had and in what sort of aircraft. The fact he'd only had his PPL for 6 months doesn't mean he was a low time pilot. He may have had the opportunity to log 100 hours 206 time over Winter. For some people ,that number of hours would give them an attitude of invicability. For others it would be viewed as the start of a steep learning curve.
Which of these catagories this bloke fell into will soon be apparent to all
(It's since been speculated that he only had 100hs. total. That's another story)
I'm certainly not saying that 100 hours is experianced.
What I was saying is that when I made that post no one on here knew what sort of hours he had and in what sort of aircraft. The fact he'd only had his PPL for 6 months doesn't mean he was a low time pilot. He may have had the opportunity to log 100 hours 206 time over Winter. For some people ,that number of hours would give them an attitude of invicability. For others it would be viewed as the start of a steep learning curve.
Which of these catagories this bloke fell into will soon be apparent to all
(It's since been speculated that he only had 100hs. total. That's another story)
Dude65, Ok I think we may be on different wave lengths, I understand you were not saying he is an experienced pilot if he had logged 100hrs. But
this is where we differ maybe, I think that does make him a very very low time pilot. Just a different opinion I guess.
Anyway, it doesn't matter, I thought it might be a good example of how different people have vastly different ideas of what a low time pilot is. Cheers.
The fact he'd only had his PPL for 6 months doesn't mean he was a low time pilot. He may have had the opportunity to log 100 hours 206 time over Winter.
Anyway, it doesn't matter, I thought it might be a good example of how different people have vastly different ideas of what a low time pilot is. Cheers.
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Are we in a hurry????
These days most of us think we are in a hurry all the time. Do we really need to be?? That kills lots of us.
I learned early in my flying career that I should be very wary of both bad weather and bad airstrips.
I scared myself with both of these things too many times.
I learned early in my flying career that I should be very wary of both bad weather and bad airstrips.
I scared myself with both of these things too many times.
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Every year an increasing number of cruising yacht owners depart points south to spend weeks or months in north Queensland waters, mostly between April and October. Some have wide experience, others are first timers. There is a cruising mantra that says you should give yourself plenty of time to get home safely, and above all don't be governed by a timetable so you can wait out the weather. The reality is that too many overlook or ignore this advice and as a result there are many tales around the marinas of how close they came to losing their yachts (and maybe their lives) because they had to be home for work or other reasons and set off in deteriorating conditions. Sometimes yachts and lives are lost. I guess my point is that whatever our calling and interests the same rules apply and the same mistakes can be made, and there but for the grace....etc
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So true..
I've also learned a great deal about bad weather coupled with get there "itis". Unfortunately this was from getting myself into them in the first place.
Its a shame we learn these things by scaring the sh*t out of ourselves, but perhaps this is a somewhat necessary evil?
Sad outcome in this case.
BP.
Its a shame we learn these things by scaring the sh*t out of ourselves, but perhaps this is a somewhat necessary evil?
Sad outcome in this case.
BP.
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I have on a few occasions decided not to depart home, even after obtaining my MECIR and have on several occasions elected not to return home or even landed and given it away for the day when I have felt the conditions are unacceptable. The ironic thing that I have noticed is that these nights where I have elected to stay on the ground have been amongst the best times I've had while away. Not sure if that is because I was happy to have made a 'good' decision, (in my view), or if that's just the way it is! 
Learnt early in my flying days that 'gethomeitis' is a seriously bad dude.
Reminds me of the saying:
"Tis better to be on the ground wishing you could be in the air, that being in the air wishing you were still on the ground"
I firmly believe that by making the choice to not risk yourself, passengers and aircraft shows good character and is certainly not a sign of being a wimp as I once heard a high time 'hero' tell a low time PPL.
BSB
Learnt early in my flying days that 'gethomeitis' is a seriously bad dude.
Reminds me of the saying:
"Tis better to be on the ground wishing you could be in the air, that being in the air wishing you were still on the ground"
I firmly believe that by making the choice to not risk yourself, passengers and aircraft shows good character and is certainly not a sign of being a wimp as I once heard a high time 'hero' tell a low time PPL.
BSB
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My very first instructor (IO, no names though) told me that as a PVT pilot you never HAVE to go flying meaning don't if you don't feel comfy about it. Slightly diff commercially but even at that level nothing is ever that urgent esspecially in my line of work.
'BSB' actually having a MECIR can be worse than being just VFR SE. Such a 'ticket' can create a false sense of safety & we all know that being in solid IMC in lousy WX in say a light twin is an awful environment.
Humans most vunerable trait is 'curiosity', that combined with aviation & lousy wx is a recipe for dissaster.
Lets hope that the investigation of this lattest event proves that poor wx & perhaps poor pilot decisions where the result & not an airframe failure.
CW
'BSB' actually having a MECIR can be worse than being just VFR SE. Such a 'ticket' can create a false sense of safety & we all know that being in solid IMC in lousy WX in say a light twin is an awful environment.
Humans most vunerable trait is 'curiosity', that combined with aviation & lousy wx is a recipe for dissaster.
Lets hope that the investigation of this lattest event proves that poor wx & perhaps poor pilot decisions where the result & not an airframe failure.
CW
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Very sad end to what should have been an enjoyable beginning to this families aviation life.
Sometimes we get ourselves into a place we don't want to be and learn from the experience.
A colleague once told me " the boss will yell and scream for a day if you don't go,or turn back, but if you bend the a/c you'll never hear the end of it...
Twenty years later I still spend more time arguing with the latest C.P. why I decided to keep my butt (and pax) on terra firma.
Whilst I have to make my own decisions on the day, I still discuss events, seek advice from my mates (a la mentors) to confirm I'm making good decisions.
The best advice here is if it doesn't feel right-IT AINT RIGHT.
Ring the instructor,mentor,ask the local refueller if you want, but remember to trust your basic survival instinct and say no if you don't feel happy. The sky will still be there tomorrow.
Sometimes we get ourselves into a place we don't want to be and learn from the experience.
A colleague once told me " the boss will yell and scream for a day if you don't go,or turn back, but if you bend the a/c you'll never hear the end of it...
Twenty years later I still spend more time arguing with the latest C.P. why I decided to keep my butt (and pax) on terra firma.
Whilst I have to make my own decisions on the day, I still discuss events, seek advice from my mates (a la mentors) to confirm I'm making good decisions.
The best advice here is if it doesn't feel right-IT AINT RIGHT.
Ring the instructor,mentor,ask the local refueller if you want, but remember to trust your basic survival instinct and say no if you don't feel happy. The sky will still be there tomorrow.
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Wally,
Agree with what you say there, however I live by a couple of rules:
I'll fly at night and I'll fly IFR but I wont fly IFR at night! (Don't fly often enough to keep current enough for that)
I won't take off if the destination TAF has more than 6 lines in it!! (If the weather is that bad why would I want to go there anyway?)
I know my limitations and as a non commercial pilot I have the choice to go or no-go. I enjoy my flying and have no desire to fly in cr&p conditions.
BSB
Agree with what you say there, however I live by a couple of rules:
I'll fly at night and I'll fly IFR but I wont fly IFR at night! (Don't fly often enough to keep current enough for that)
I won't take off if the destination TAF has more than 6 lines in it!! (If the weather is that bad why would I want to go there anyway?)
I know my limitations and as a non commercial pilot I have the choice to go or no-go. I enjoy my flying and have no desire to fly in cr&p conditions.
BSB
Its not that hard!
Safe flying is about discipline and risk management.
Fly by the rules, be they VFR or IFR, and within your pre-defined personal parameters and you will most likely arrive safely at your destination - occasionally a little later than you might have liked.
Dr
Safe flying is about discipline and risk management.
Fly by the rules, be they VFR or IFR, and within your pre-defined personal parameters and you will most likely arrive safely at your destination - occasionally a little later than you might have liked.
Dr
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To summarise this thread to date.
1)The Pilot was qualified and experienced to attempt this flight.
2)The Pilot probably met the criteria of most insurance Companies of 100+ hours to hire a similar on line aircraft for a similar flight.
3)We assume there was no flight plan lodged, but don’t know enough to assume a flight note was left with anybody.
4)If a plan were lodged it would have assisted the SAR response earlier than a flight note.
5)Somebody activated an alert when the aircraft failed to arrive at its destination, possibly a flight note holder? Neither of the above would have any influence on the events that occurred. It appears no ELT was activated.
6)The Pilot made it North of Murrurundi Gap so there was probably an option to divert to Quirindi over friendly country. This was not taken up.
7)The Pilot appears to have planned the flight along the spine of the Great Dividing Range. Something most here would not contemplate given the circumstances. Some make the assertion that the flight was “high risk”.
8)There appears a strong possibility that there was mechanical turbulence on the day. As a result of strong Westerly winds.
9)Nobody has posted the forecast of the day. It would appear that there was no likelihood of a VMC into IMC scenario.
10)It appears there was no known weather that would prevent a VFR flight.
11)There is no evidence that the Pilot was responsible for, nor intended to “waste scarce SAR resources” in planning a flight without a flight plan, nor was there evidence of “the deployment of a massive SAR party”.
12)Some believe that a Mentor system would have had a positive influence and possibly have prevented this crash and others in the future.
I can offer no more than concur with the previous post plus make the point that a pilot is never experienced enough for any flight. I am still learning after 43 years.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing, pity the Pilot in this case had none.
1)The Pilot was qualified and experienced to attempt this flight.
2)The Pilot probably met the criteria of most insurance Companies of 100+ hours to hire a similar on line aircraft for a similar flight.
3)We assume there was no flight plan lodged, but don’t know enough to assume a flight note was left with anybody.
4)If a plan were lodged it would have assisted the SAR response earlier than a flight note.
5)Somebody activated an alert when the aircraft failed to arrive at its destination, possibly a flight note holder? Neither of the above would have any influence on the events that occurred. It appears no ELT was activated.
6)The Pilot made it North of Murrurundi Gap so there was probably an option to divert to Quirindi over friendly country. This was not taken up.
7)The Pilot appears to have planned the flight along the spine of the Great Dividing Range. Something most here would not contemplate given the circumstances. Some make the assertion that the flight was “high risk”.
8)There appears a strong possibility that there was mechanical turbulence on the day. As a result of strong Westerly winds.
9)Nobody has posted the forecast of the day. It would appear that there was no likelihood of a VMC into IMC scenario.
10)It appears there was no known weather that would prevent a VFR flight.
11)There is no evidence that the Pilot was responsible for, nor intended to “waste scarce SAR resources” in planning a flight without a flight plan, nor was there evidence of “the deployment of a massive SAR party”.
12)Some believe that a Mentor system would have had a positive influence and possibly have prevented this crash and others in the future.
I can offer no more than concur with the previous post plus make the point that a pilot is never experienced enough for any flight. I am still learning after 43 years.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing, pity the Pilot in this case had none.
Thread Starter
Bob
I think a bit of idle discussion and a few "what-ifs" are helpful, but your post is incorrect in a number of material points and is helpful to no-one.
How do you know that?
There was crap wx.
There was strong wind.
There was high terrain.
So MUI Gap doesn't really enter into it. In fact, the wx west of the range was much worse than on the range itself.
QDI was copping a bucketing, so even IF he was heading west and even IF he could get over the Gap, it would have been out of the frying pan into the fire. In fact the strike-finder picture on weatherzone.com.au showed a dense line of strikes to the west - so going east was a better option than west.
I think a bit of idle discussion and a few "what-ifs" are helpful, but your post is incorrect in a number of material points and is helpful to no-one.
9)Nobody has posted the forecast of the day. It would appear that there was no likelihood of a VMC into IMC scenario.
There was crap wx.
There was strong wind.
There was high terrain.
6)The Pilot made it North of Murrurundi Gap so there was probably an option to divert to Quirindi over friendly country. This was not taken up.
7)The Pilot appears to have planned the flight along the spine of the Great Dividing Range. Something most here would not contemplate given the circumstances. Some make the assertion that the flight was “high risk”.
QDI was copping a bucketing, so even IF he was heading west and even IF he could get over the Gap, it would have been out of the frying pan into the fire. In fact the strike-finder picture on weatherzone.com.au showed a dense line of strikes to the west - so going east was a better option than west.
I pulled the pin Sunday morning thirty minutes (5.10 am) )before the Dawn Patrol because I didn't like the weather showing on radar on the other side of the Bay.
1. I had a cross hired Warrior that I had not flown before. Unfamiliar audio setup, steam driven radios.
2. I had a passenger.
3. Landing light inoperative, strobes not fitted.
4. The forecast said moderate to severe turbulence below 5000 ft.
Anyone care to work out the different ways those cheese holes could line up? If I'd had a familiar aircraft with strobes, Garmin 430 and everything working I would probably have gone but when there are two or more unknowns, danger signs start flashing, at least for me.
1. I had a cross hired Warrior that I had not flown before. Unfamiliar audio setup, steam driven radios.
2. I had a passenger.
3. Landing light inoperative, strobes not fitted.
4. The forecast said moderate to severe turbulence below 5000 ft.
Anyone care to work out the different ways those cheese holes could line up? If I'd had a familiar aircraft with strobes, Garmin 430 and everything working I would probably have gone but when there are two or more unknowns, danger signs start flashing, at least for me.
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'Sunfish' yr still here to tell us of yr wisdom because of yr wisdom, well done
Like I said earlier, nothing is ever that urgent (ref to flying) when it comes to aviation!
'Dr' yr wisdom is spot on, only trouble is we are dealing with humans here, the rules the written rules as you mentioned are B&W not what's in every pilots mind! What one pilot will do re rules in any cat. IFR or VFR another may very well do differently as we have seen recently, there in lies the real risk.
Where you bin Dr?
I was at 'busted hill (YBHI) the other day & out of the open spaces in an almost desert like landscape came a plain coloured V35, damn things breeding like rabbits!
CW
Like I said earlier, nothing is ever that urgent (ref to flying) when it comes to aviation!
'Dr' yr wisdom is spot on, only trouble is we are dealing with humans here, the rules the written rules as you mentioned are B&W not what's in every pilots mind! What one pilot will do re rules in any cat. IFR or VFR another may very well do differently as we have seen recently, there in lies the real risk.
Where you bin Dr?
I was at 'busted hill (YBHI) the other day & out of the open spaces in an almost desert like landscape came a plain coloured V35, damn things breeding like rabbits!
CW
Sunfish takes off in his unfamiliar plane and shortly thereafter gets a thumping from moderate turb. He asks for a clearance to track clear of a line of CB's along the coast in an attempt to find smoother air, the passenger is a bit unnerved, and starts talking over a transmission requesting Sunfish to change frequency, his workload is high now, turb now severe and 80% of his brainspace needed to keep the a/c from overspeeding and at a reasonable height. He makes the readback though and starts to fiddle with the unfamiliar radio, just then severe turb makes his head hit the roof , pens and maps everywhere and the pax sqwarks loudly, sh1t what was that freq? he's on the heading, thats right yeah...., can't make contact with centre, finger trouble with new radio and turbulence (doesn't realise he's just turned the vol down) , about this time a Q400 crew hitting the arc at 250kts get an RA off poor old SF who has busted airspace. everyone lands ok but SF vows to follow his gut instinct as he fills out the incident form that ATC faxed him.
Ha Ha sorry SF, I have no idea of whether or not that is even remotely possible but thought it would be fun to try;
Couldn't work the lights in anywhere sorry
Ha Ha sorry SF, I have no idea of whether or not that is even remotely possible but thought it would be fun to try;
Anyone care to work out the different ways those cheese holes could line up?
That's just brilliant "framer"! Ever thought of becoming a writer of air disaster stories?
I can just picture you and Tom Clancy riding it out in a stormy night over the Pacific someplace.
Keep'em comin'! I am getting entertained
I can just picture you and Tom Clancy riding it out in a stormy night over the Pacific someplace.
Keep'em comin'! I am getting entertained