U206 missing - Northern NSW
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PlankBlender;
Not having a flight plan did not cause the accident, I'm sure.
Murrurundi Gap is a fairly well know escape route from the Hunter region and once through opens to fairly open country. 55 Km north would put it near sight of Quirindi. There is no indication that the aircraft was tracking direct Scone to Gold Coast over tiger country.
Being unfamiliar with that particular aircraft does not mean the pilot was inexperienced and where does any report mention anything about his level of training? He may well have had 5000 hours on 210's or 206's for all you know.
Did you read the "sticky" at the threads index?
Not having a flight plan did not cause the accident, I'm sure.
Murrurundi Gap is a fairly well know escape route from the Hunter region and once through opens to fairly open country. 55 Km north would put it near sight of Quirindi. There is no indication that the aircraft was tracking direct Scone to Gold Coast over tiger country.
Being unfamiliar with that particular aircraft does not mean the pilot was inexperienced and where does any report mention anything about his level of training? He may well have had 5000 hours on 210's or 206's for all you know.
Did you read the "sticky" at the threads index?
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Bob, did you see any of the witness and AusSar reports?
Think you will find if you dig a little deeper Plank Blender has raised some very vaild points, based on fairly accurate and reliable witnesses. Which I might add is an unusual occurrence with the media!
J
Think you will find if you dig a little deeper Plank Blender has raised some very vaild points, based on fairly accurate and reliable witnesses. Which I might add is an unusual occurrence with the media!
J
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Not having a flight plan did not cause the accident, I'm sure.
Not to mention that the absence of a flight plan prompted an otherwise unnecessary deployment of a massive SAR party (Bladeslapper • View topic - Missing aeroplane) which is in my way simply a thoughtless disregard of scarce SAR resources.
Murrurundi Gap is a fairly well know escape route from the Hunter region and once through opens to fairly open country. 55 Km north would put it near sight of Quirindi. There is no indication that the aircraft was tracking direct Scone to Gold Coast over tiger country.
This article (Three found dead in plane wreck) quotes the topology of the crash site to be a hillside at around 4500 feet elevation, which matches the WAC. If that's not tiger country I don't know what is
If you plot Scone-Casino on a WAC, this will put Hanging Rock right in the flight path. He headed straight for the hills in bad weather! He did have an escape path to lower terrain in the west, but that's of little use if the weather closes around you as you quickly run out of options completely.
Being unfamiliar with that particular aircraft does not mean the pilot was inexperienced and where does any report mention anything about his level of training? He may well have had 5000 hours on 210's or 206's for all you know.
Did you read the "sticky" at the threads index?
Do you actually disagree with my central point that the decision to go for the pilot is indefensible?
Last edited by PlankBlender; 16th Sep 2008 at 06:16. Reason: grammar
I would caution against guessing at the causes. I admit I'm in the camp that does have an opinion on the cause but I DON'T KNOW therefore won't comment on what I believe it is.
I did see a reporter on 10 make a good statement as hard as it is to believe but he did mention it could be fuel, it could have been a fuel problem, it could have been engine trouble, it could have been the weather (It did make me open my eyes and at least question my initial thoughts).
As I said I'm probably with the majority in what I think is the cause but I DON't KNOW and nobody else here KNOWS either.
What I do know however is it is a sad tragedy.
I did see a reporter on 10 make a good statement as hard as it is to believe but he did mention it could be fuel, it could have been a fuel problem, it could have been engine trouble, it could have been the weather (It did make me open my eyes and at least question my initial thoughts).
As I said I'm probably with the majority in what I think is the cause but I DON't KNOW and nobody else here KNOWS either.
What I do know however is it is a sad tragedy.
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ozbiggles, I think you're missing the point. We're not speculating about possible causes, we're analysing the circumstances of the flight and the decision making to conduct such a flight.
I think it is safe to conclude that the PIC attempted a very high risk flight, and he paid the ultimate price.
The more people read this discussion and remember it the next time they plan a flight, the better!
I think it is safe to conclude that the PIC attempted a very high risk flight, and he paid the ultimate price.
The more people read this discussion and remember it the next time they plan a flight, the better!
This is so bloody sad. Condolences to the families involved.
The Australian reported this morning that the pilot had just 100 hours, bad weather, bad country, a big new aircraft, no flight plan and passengers.
I do not know if any of this is true but If what was reported in the Australian is correct, then I would just shake my head in disbelief on so many levels.
The Australian reported this morning that the pilot had just 100 hours, bad weather, bad country, a big new aircraft, no flight plan and passengers.
I do not know if any of this is true but If what was reported in the Australian is correct, then I would just shake my head in disbelief on so many levels.
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Is not the first, and unfortunately won't be the last. While we may shake our heads we need to remember the old saw "there but for the grace of God go I".
Now be honest chaps/chapesses, have you not at some point been caught out and managed to get back on the ground knees a knocking. Any one who doesn't have his/her hand up either doesn't under stand the question or is fibbing. We have to fill the bag of experience with out emptying the bag of luck. When we get a licence it is but a licence to learn, some of us get to survive our mistakes, and sadly for some it is the last flight they will ever make. Its all very well to read the educational material, crash comics etc but its not until you get into the real world and start flying and gaining the experience in making those judgement calls that things start to gel.
Saw a 206 come into Queenstown ex Hobart many, many years ago with three young couples on board and shrubbery hanging from the airframe. Flying up a valley low level beneath the weather to be faced with the end of the valley, no room to turn around so forcing a climb into the cloud and hitting the trees on the ridge line. Airframe undamaged but 3 young guys and their 3 girl friends lived to tell a story. Could have all been so different couldn't it?
Part of the trouble is the lack off mentoring and supervision available to a new minted PPL.
Now be honest chaps/chapesses, have you not at some point been caught out and managed to get back on the ground knees a knocking. Any one who doesn't have his/her hand up either doesn't under stand the question or is fibbing. We have to fill the bag of experience with out emptying the bag of luck. When we get a licence it is but a licence to learn, some of us get to survive our mistakes, and sadly for some it is the last flight they will ever make. Its all very well to read the educational material, crash comics etc but its not until you get into the real world and start flying and gaining the experience in making those judgement calls that things start to gel.
Saw a 206 come into Queenstown ex Hobart many, many years ago with three young couples on board and shrubbery hanging from the airframe. Flying up a valley low level beneath the weather to be faced with the end of the valley, no room to turn around so forcing a climb into the cloud and hitting the trees on the ridge line. Airframe undamaged but 3 young guys and their 3 girl friends lived to tell a story. Could have all been so different couldn't it?
Part of the trouble is the lack off mentoring and supervision available to a new minted PPL.
Thread Starter
Jabawocky
very vaild points, based on fairly accurate and reliable witnesses.
JDQ was not the only aircraft to leave Scone that morning - I departed, in a 206, 60 minutes later.
The wx (cloud, anyway) wasn't that bad but the downdrafts in the lee of the hills was savage -we had full power at Vy to remain level at 7,000' over Murrurundi.
I had watched them refuel from my office and watched his son and another kid there to meet them run around the airport, just as my kids do.
The last 24 hours have been full of "there but for the grace of god" thoughts - the only real difference between us and him was an IFR flight plan and 2,500' more altitude
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HL, what was the cloud base like on the day? Were you above the clouds in your IFR flight?
As any IFR trained pilot will know, the difference between VFR and IFR can make a crucial difference, not only in the ability to get out of a situation (e.g. clouds in a valley) that would be a dramatic problem for a VFR pilot, but also in terms of the level of skill and education of an IFR trained pilot.
As any IFR trained pilot will know, the difference between VFR and IFR can make a crucial difference, not only in the ability to get out of a situation (e.g. clouds in a valley) that would be a dramatic problem for a VFR pilot, but also in terms of the level of skill and education of an IFR trained pilot.
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Planks -
It was a typical day of unsettled pre-frontal spring weather, nothing more, nothing less.
Anyone who learnt to fly at CATA/NASA/UNFS would remember what the westerlies can be like in August/September... it was stronger, but smoother than a normal cracking westerly.
The cloud was a wall of water to the SE - we cancelled a local survey job because the vis was 3000m in rain with a cieling about 800'. It was as per the Tempo issued for Scone that day.
It cleared up abou 10 mins before old mate arrived with cloud sitting on the hilltops and otherwise SCT 025. We could see daylight between the cloud and the gaps in the range.
When we got to TOPC there were plenty of CU/SCwith heavy showers to the west, but to the east (toward MSO) it looked pretty clear.
Spent half an hour with the ATSB this afternoon.
I would go out on a limb and suggest that VFR ->IMC was NOT the problem - when I went past I could clearly see the general area where the wreckage was later found.
It was a typical day of unsettled pre-frontal spring weather, nothing more, nothing less.
Anyone who learnt to fly at CATA/NASA/UNFS would remember what the westerlies can be like in August/September... it was stronger, but smoother than a normal cracking westerly.
The cloud was a wall of water to the SE - we cancelled a local survey job because the vis was 3000m in rain with a cieling about 800'. It was as per the Tempo issued for Scone that day.
It cleared up abou 10 mins before old mate arrived with cloud sitting on the hilltops and otherwise SCT 025. We could see daylight between the cloud and the gaps in the range.
When we got to TOPC there were plenty of CU/SCwith heavy showers to the west, but to the east (toward MSO) it looked pretty clear.
Spent half an hour with the ATSB this afternoon.
I would go out on a limb and suggest that VFR ->IMC was NOT the problem - when I went past I could clearly see the general area where the wreckage was later found.
Last edited by Horatio Leafblower; 16th Sep 2008 at 11:04.
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HL
AusSar folk also made some observations, presume they had managed to review some radar history and isolated a 1200 paint.
I think your sumary of how it went is most likely correct.
J
AusSar folk also made some observations, presume they had managed to review some radar history and isolated a 1200 paint.
I think your sumary of how it went is most likely correct.
J
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'HL' I feel for you also at the moment, I too was in yr stated position many years ago & that being you witnessed the ill fated flight/people not took long before their demise. I felt quite upset when I hd the same experience. (Spoke to an Ag driver after doing some work on his plane & only an hr or so before he crashed & died).
There will be many questions asked here & thru official channels over the next few months re this lattest accident but one thing as others have said in other ways here planes will always crash, they don't crash themselves generally they need input correct or otherwise to end a flight in dissaster.
This lattest accident just goes to show despite all good intentions we humans make mistakes judgement wise day in day out, this time this guy got caught & paid a very high price for it. Lets trust that this event doesn't fade too quickly before yet again someone else goes along the same path
RIP our fellow aviator for yr mistake/s hopefully will save others!
CW
There will be many questions asked here & thru official channels over the next few months re this lattest accident but one thing as others have said in other ways here planes will always crash, they don't crash themselves generally they need input correct or otherwise to end a flight in dissaster.
This lattest accident just goes to show despite all good intentions we humans make mistakes judgement wise day in day out, this time this guy got caught & paid a very high price for it. Lets trust that this event doesn't fade too quickly before yet again someone else goes along the same path
RIP our fellow aviator for yr mistake/s hopefully will save others!
CW
If he really did have only 100hrs then the point about a lack of mentoring is a good one. Have there been attempts to set up an official mentoring system in the past? ie if you have > 3000hrs or something then you can put your details forward to a web-site/database and a fresh ppl can be assigned to you. He/she can simply telephone you the night or week before a flight , or ten minutes before departure, and discuss weather, route, fuel, threats to the operation etc.
A lot of older pilots would feel good about providing some guidance and surely it would help the less experienced pilots.
What do you think? has it been done before ? Is it pie in the sky stuff?
A lot of older pilots would feel good about providing some guidance and surely it would help the less experienced pilots.
What do you think? has it been done before ? Is it pie in the sky stuff?
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'Framer' now that's a good idea in general
Am not too sure how it would work as people these days seem to be forever busy but none the less a good basic idea. The only possible down side with it though would be that the mentor after giving valid advice to a low houred pilot seeking help via this system for say as an Eg. not to go (or advised not to go) due WX etc. & this can only be ever advice would feel damn awful if the worst ever did happen as in the case in point here with this current thread. Still worth further disscusion am sure.
CW
Am not too sure how it would work as people these days seem to be forever busy but none the less a good basic idea. The only possible down side with it though would be that the mentor after giving valid advice to a low houred pilot seeking help via this system for say as an Eg. not to go (or advised not to go) due WX etc. & this can only be ever advice would feel damn awful if the worst ever did happen as in the case in point here with this current thread. Still worth further disscusion am sure.
CW
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Originally Posted by framer
Have there been attempts to set up an official mentoring system in the past?
Silly Old Git
The only possible down side with it though would be that the mentor after giving valid advice to a low houred pilot seeking help via this system for say as an Eg. not to go (or advised not to go) due WX etc. & this can only be ever advice would feel damn awful if the worst ever did happen as in the case in point here with this current thread.
Lawyers.
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framer - as a "fresh PPL" i think that would be worth looking at.
As Capt Wally alludes to you would have to consider various scenarios to see how it would work.
In the end the responsibility rests with the pilot with hand on throttle
As Capt Wally alludes to you would have to consider various scenarios to see how it would work.
In the end the responsibility rests with the pilot with hand on throttle
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Who knows who this bloke spoke to prior to his departure from Bankstown. Perhaps some more experianced heads could have made him think twice.
Network 10 in Brisbane spoke to his business partner who stated he had received his PPL "about 6 months ago". The pilots flying experiance will come out in the investigation so it's not for anyone here to speculate.(Good weather over winter means he could have logged 100 plus hours for all we know)
The mentoring thing is an interesting comment. Low hour PPl's like myself sometimes need a bit of a brainstorming session before we go flying. It's certainly a way of reinforcing what we already should know. That's where Aero clubs come in handy.
On the other hand ,some days it's just better to hop in the car and go home.
Network 10 in Brisbane spoke to his business partner who stated he had received his PPL "about 6 months ago". The pilots flying experiance will come out in the investigation so it's not for anyone here to speculate.(Good weather over winter means he could have logged 100 plus hours for all we know)
The mentoring thing is an interesting comment. Low hour PPl's like myself sometimes need a bit of a brainstorming session before we go flying. It's certainly a way of reinforcing what we already should know. That's where Aero clubs come in handy.
On the other hand ,some days it's just better to hop in the car and go home.
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I have found when boating, motor racing, and flying I made it my job to identify a couple of good mentoring folk.
Over time as my experience base grew and I outgrew some I replaced them with others. Flying mentors for me include a few PPRuNers and other airline/commercial folk.
Its a good idea, but how you formalise it...... I think Tin hit the nail on the head
.
J
Over time as my experience base grew and I outgrew some I replaced them with others. Flying mentors for me include a few PPRuNers and other airline/commercial folk.
Its a good idea, but how you formalise it...... I think Tin hit the nail on the head
.J
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some good points re mentors being posted & no doubt this thread will diverge away a little from the core reason as to why we are here but maybe just as well 'till we find out the facts of the case in point. Low hrs, bad WX a somewhat reasonable high performace craft means a recipe for disaster.
'tinpis' that's a good question/statement lawyers would only come into play if some 'adivce' was given fm a mentor & proved wrong but this would be hard to do in this case as all are deceased sadly.
Aero clubs as has been mentioned is a good place for mentorship in some basic ways but I think a lot of today's budding pilots tend to go it alone a lot as the instructors themselves are 'green' also in a few & possibly more cases, no disrespect to that fraternity of our field. Again without further disrespect to instructors one needs to have done the hard miles over many years doing God dam awful charter jobs to be able to pass on perhaps useful hard earned info. Besides after we get a brand new licence what's the first thing we want to do? go flying regardless of what some might advise against irrespective of their experience level.
CW
'tinpis' that's a good question/statement lawyers would only come into play if some 'adivce' was given fm a mentor & proved wrong but this would be hard to do in this case as all are deceased sadly.
Aero clubs as has been mentioned is a good place for mentorship in some basic ways but I think a lot of today's budding pilots tend to go it alone a lot as the instructors themselves are 'green' also in a few & possibly more cases, no disrespect to that fraternity of our field. Again without further disrespect to instructors one needs to have done the hard miles over many years doing God dam awful charter jobs to be able to pass on perhaps useful hard earned info. Besides after we get a brand new licence what's the first thing we want to do? go flying regardless of what some might advise against irrespective of their experience level.
CW