Stroppy ATC and Sartime Cancelling
Stroppy ATC and Sartime Cancelling
Several times in the last week I've cancelled SARTIME on Melb Centre 122.4 only to be given the terse reply ......in future please cancell on the phone.
Its just not allways practical, we are in a remote area, 1 phone line which is frequently busy or down. Aften running very close to our SARTIME, I try to stay off the air as much as possible.
First they take Flightwatch off us, now they dont want us cancelling on centre, how many SAR phoses do they want.
The only solution is to ammend our SARTIME before each arriveal to give us an extra hour. Either way it involves a radio call to ATC.
Its just not allways practical, we are in a remote area, 1 phone line which is frequently busy or down. Aften running very close to our SARTIME, I try to stay off the air as much as possible.
First they take Flightwatch off us, now they dont want us cancelling on centre, how many SAR phoses do they want.
The only solution is to ammend our SARTIME before each arriveal to give us an extra hour. Either way it involves a radio call to ATC.
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hey yeah i always cancel it with radar in Syd, i don't know if they get pissed off?
What actually happened to flight watch? LOL I remember a couple of months ago trying to contact them like 20 times to amend a Sartime.
What actually happened to flight watch? LOL I remember a couple of months ago trying to contact them like 20 times to amend a Sartime.
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Maybe your reply could be something like...........
"In Future - How about you tell the minister"
I do feel for the poor buggers but its not the pilots fault either. No need to take it out on him.
I recently asked for some wx details (and it was a crappy patch of wx around) and I was snidely replied to with something like, is your internet off line today?
Now to be fair the Optus thing had happend a day or so before in SEQ and I had just left Adels Grove..... where the internet would not work.... perhaps too thick a cloud cover for the SATNET!
J
"In Future - How about you tell the minister"
I do feel for the poor buggers but its not the pilots fault either. No need to take it out on him.
I recently asked for some wx details (and it was a crappy patch of wx around) and I was snidely replied to with something like, is your internet off line today?
Now to be fair the Optus thing had happend a day or so before in SEQ and I had just left Adels Grove..... where the internet would not work.... perhaps too thick a cloud cover for the SATNET!
J
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Next time tell them politely *cough* to provide the service. ATC are there to provide services for the safe and efficient movement of aircraft, pilots and their passengers, not the other way round. 
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If they suggest you cancel on the phone again just call back in your best captains/battle of Britain RAF voice, "Ah, thats a negative Melbourne Centre, we only use smoke signals out here, and the smoke machine has been out of action for weeks"
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I would simply suggest to the controller that if they are not happy taking the SARTIME cancellation, would they mind taking an amended SARTIME? This actually requires slightly more writing on the controllers part and I'm sure they'd be happy to take the cancellation then. A whole lot more satisfying than spraying over the air.
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Roger
Good point.
I have to say that 99% of the time the service is excellent, its the overload thats causing the rpoblems. I have several mates who are ATCers and I understand what their lot in life has been of late.
Maybe us pilots should report these problems to the minister! See if it actually gets through!
Good point.
I have to say that 99% of the time the service is excellent, its the overload thats causing the rpoblems. I have several mates who are ATCers and I understand what their lot in life has been of late.
Maybe us pilots should report these problems to the minister! See if it actually gets through!
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I recently asked for some wx details (and it was a crappy patch of wx around) and I was snidely replied to with something like, is your internet off line today?
so this internet thing... you can do porn, emails AND weather ?????
when did this happen?
Owen Stanly,
Its not that I;m unhappy, i;ll happily cancel by phone, smoke signals or carrier pigeon. Its all the same to me. I;m just thinking from a practical standpoint.
Dispite the best laid plans, I seem to loose that buffer on every nav. Allways getting back an hr lateer than I thought I would.
the solo students are the same, most cancel with a minute to spare. All up, only 1 call to ATC.
Waiting for the phone method tends to allow them to forget. By the time they frigging around refueling, putting away the a/c etc.
Just rying to be practical.
Does anyone know what actions the controller does to cancel a sartime?
Its not that I;m unhappy, i;ll happily cancel by phone, smoke signals or carrier pigeon. Its all the same to me. I;m just thinking from a practical standpoint.
Dispite the best laid plans, I seem to loose that buffer on every nav. Allways getting back an hr lateer than I thought I would.
the solo students are the same, most cancel with a minute to spare. All up, only 1 call to ATC.
Waiting for the phone method tends to allow them to forget. By the time they frigging around refueling, putting away the a/c etc.
Just rying to be practical.
Does anyone know what actions the controller does to cancel a sartime?
From a tower perspective we ring CENSAR on the 1800 number. Unless they called us first looking for you. (Yes I know there is an extension we can use but its the same bloke). Not sure how the centres/TCU's do it, but they have a fancy VCSC thing.
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Several times in the last week
No need for grumpyness on the controller's behalf, but don't you have a mobile.
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No need for grumpyness on the controller's behalf,
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what a sad state of affairs this has turned out to be.
i admit that i didn't know that centre actually just ring and cancel for you, i would have thought there was a computer system for them to cancel or amend SAR.
i usually use the phone or HF anyway.
i admit that i didn't know that centre actually just ring and cancel for you, i would have thought there was a computer system for them to cancel or amend SAR.
i usually use the phone or HF anyway.
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Everyone in this industry gets grumpy from time to time, who wouldn't it's flawed in many ways with less & less services & higher fees etc. I've been lucky have not had too many 'grumpy "service' guys on the other end of the R/T. Hopefully on yr flt pln you have 2 Ph No's for ATC to contact should you forget or are unable to cancel sar for any reason. I believe ATC do a great job considering the 'tool's they are given to use by the regulators. My point is who hasn't been grumpy sometime in this industry?
CW
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One of the reasons the associations agreed to FW moving to the en route sectors was that services would not be diminished.
There was also a safety value in cancelling on the frequency you were using en route as you did not lose SA for what was happening by being off freq, and you were on the right freq for a call if something went amiss.
Certainly we should use phone if available as best to NOT rely on third-party handling but as pointed out at the start - phone may NOT be available/reliable therefore it may be better to inconvenience one ATC for 30 seconds than the entire system going into uncertainty phase and a lot more effort.
We all accept that the current (mis) management of ATC staffing has created problems - that is an Airservices issue and should not be allowed to remove the services they are meant to provide.
My suggestion - advise the ATC "facility not available, kindly accept the cancellation".
There was also a safety value in cancelling on the frequency you were using en route as you did not lose SA for what was happening by being off freq, and you were on the right freq for a call if something went amiss.
Certainly we should use phone if available as best to NOT rely on third-party handling but as pointed out at the start - phone may NOT be available/reliable therefore it may be better to inconvenience one ATC for 30 seconds than the entire system going into uncertainty phase and a lot more effort.
We all accept that the current (mis) management of ATC staffing has created problems - that is an Airservices issue and should not be allowed to remove the services they are meant to provide.
My suggestion - advise the ATC "facility not available, kindly accept the cancellation".
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that is an Airservices issue and should not be allowed to remove the services they are meant to provide.
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Pera
I'm not suggesting they should "just cope". Re-read what I said please.
If the sartime expires, the effect on ATC is higher workload of higher priority (than if the ATC handles the cancellation first up) once the uncertainty phase is declared.
The burden is already shared across industry by TIBA, lack of flight following, reduced training timeslots at locations like CB in the mid arvo, and so on.
If industry does NOT ask for the services that ATC can provide, ATC and Civil Air have no leverage to push for fair staff numbers. If we keep reducing the entitlement, it is a logical consequence that less demand work = less ATC.
Think strategic. Industry supports the ATC position - grumpy knockbacks don't help the cause. If the sector is busy, adopt the usual procedure of passing the service request to a nearby quieter sector (and reciprocating at some later time).
I'm not suggesting they should "just cope". Re-read what I said please.
If the sartime expires, the effect on ATC is higher workload of higher priority (than if the ATC handles the cancellation first up) once the uncertainty phase is declared.
The burden is already shared across industry by TIBA, lack of flight following, reduced training timeslots at locations like CB in the mid arvo, and so on.
If industry does NOT ask for the services that ATC can provide, ATC and Civil Air have no leverage to push for fair staff numbers. If we keep reducing the entitlement, it is a logical consequence that less demand work = less ATC.
Think strategic. Industry supports the ATC position - grumpy knockbacks don't help the cause. If the sector is busy, adopt the usual procedure of passing the service request to a nearby quieter sector (and reciprocating at some later time).
Last edited by james michael; 28th Aug 2008 at 23:47. Reason: ambiguity - add two brackets para 2
Grumpy ATC does nobody no good. I think most in the industry support the need for appropriate manpower to provide the basic level of ATC and support services required for us all to function in the business with a base level of safety.
We all have issues that we have to deal with! Grumpiness just provokes more negative responses.
I have nothing but praise and respect for 99% of my interactions with ATC, unfortunately its the 1% that sticks in your head.
Some time ago, while flying YROM-YBTL on a VFR flight plan (yeah, Jabba, I know - unusual for me!), I requested the latest TL weather because I was contemplating upgrading to IFR because of the appearance of the weather ahead.
The response from Centre was "call Flightwatch". Unable to raise FW, I again requested the TL weather from Centre - and was told "not at this time".
My next response to Centre was going to be an upgrade to IFR, a further request for the TL weather (with "require" if necessary), and if/when successful - a downgrade back to VFR just to make my point!
As it turned out I got the TL weather via inflight internet !!!!! So I let it go at that time! I did however make a formal complaint - which later tied up a chunk of someone's time investigating!
My point? Being rude to people like me will not necessarily make the problem go away - it will likely just escalate it!
Dr
We all have issues that we have to deal with! Grumpiness just provokes more negative responses.
I have nothing but praise and respect for 99% of my interactions with ATC, unfortunately its the 1% that sticks in your head.
Some time ago, while flying YROM-YBTL on a VFR flight plan (yeah, Jabba, I know - unusual for me!), I requested the latest TL weather because I was contemplating upgrading to IFR because of the appearance of the weather ahead.
The response from Centre was "call Flightwatch". Unable to raise FW, I again requested the TL weather from Centre - and was told "not at this time".
My next response to Centre was going to be an upgrade to IFR, a further request for the TL weather (with "require" if necessary), and if/when successful - a downgrade back to VFR just to make my point!
As it turned out I got the TL weather via inflight internet !!!!! So I let it go at that time! I did however make a formal complaint - which later tied up a chunk of someone's time investigating!
My point? Being rude to people like me will not necessarily make the problem go away - it will likely just escalate it!
Dr
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HANG ON!!!!!.....
so this internet thing... you can do porn, emails AND weather ?????
when did this happen?
so this internet thing... you can do porn, emails AND weather ?????
when did this happen?
If you are well set up like the Dr
you can do all that and more.....from the flight deck!
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I'd prefer that they said no, rather than confirm receipt of an amendment/cancellation and then do nothing with it.
I made a trip earlier this year where both BN and MEL center acknowledged receipt of instructions but did not pass them onto CENSAR on four different legs, phone coverage wasn't available in the remote areas at the far end of the trip...and then to top it off I returned after 5 hours of dodging under and around bad weather to find the CP standing outside the hangar waiting for me, after hours, on the phone to CENSAR after an inflight amendment had got lost in the system too.
All very embarassing and a waste of time for a fair number of people...
I made a trip earlier this year where both BN and MEL center acknowledged receipt of instructions but did not pass them onto CENSAR on four different legs, phone coverage wasn't available in the remote areas at the far end of the trip...and then to top it off I returned after 5 hours of dodging under and around bad weather to find the CP standing outside the hangar waiting for me, after hours, on the phone to CENSAR after an inflight amendment had got lost in the system too.
All very embarassing and a waste of time for a fair number of people...