Stroppy ATC and Sartime Cancelling
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Darraweit Guim, Victoria
Age: 65
Posts: 508
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Zardumb suggests: Next time tell them politely *cough* to provide the service. ATC are there to provide services for the safe and efficient movement of aircraft, pilots and their passengers, not the other way round.
James Michael said: If the sartime expires, the effect on ATC is higher workload of higher priority (than if the ATC handles the cancellation first up) once the uncertainty phase is declared.
Ftdk said: Unable to raise FW, I again requested the TL weather from Centre - and was told "not at this time".
My next response to Centre was going to be an upgrade to IFR, a further request for the TL weather (with "require" if necessary), and if/when successful - a downgrade back to VFR just to make my point!
My next response to Centre was going to be an upgrade to IFR, a further request for the TL weather (with "require" if necessary), and if/when successful - a downgrade back to VFR just to make my point!
The Manual Of Air Traffic Services says:
9-10-340 Precedence
Where air traffic service units provide both flight information and air traffic control services , give precedence to the provision of air traffic control over flight information, unless doing so would compromise safety.
9-10-350 Pilot access to information
Advise pilots to access information on the FLIGHTWATCH frequency if your workload or frequency congestion makes it more practical.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Oz
Age: 77
Posts: 590
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Spodman
First, discrete FW frequencies were provided. They had the function of MET and SAR amongst other things. They were withdrawn by ASA and transferred to the en route ATC frequencies - no?
For aircraft NOT HF equipped the arrangement was to ask for FW on the en route freq - no? How do you suggest such aircraft can be sent to a non-existent VHF frequency for FW information?
Second, no effect on ATC with an expired sartime? Who are those people I hear looking up CTAF frequencies and contacting overflyers to try and make contact with a/c on the ground with expired sartime? Less effort than passing on a SAR cancel or amend?
MATS certainly provides "precedence". Don't misread that as "refusal" - unless you can demonstrate being indefinitely flat out like a lizard drinking it actually means "There will be a delay in providing the requested service".
Have I misunderstood all this?
First, discrete FW frequencies were provided. They had the function of MET and SAR amongst other things. They were withdrawn by ASA and transferred to the en route ATC frequencies - no?
For aircraft NOT HF equipped the arrangement was to ask for FW on the en route freq - no? How do you suggest such aircraft can be sent to a non-existent VHF frequency for FW information?
Second, no effect on ATC with an expired sartime? Who are those people I hear looking up CTAF frequencies and contacting overflyers to try and make contact with a/c on the ground with expired sartime? Less effort than passing on a SAR cancel or amend?
MATS certainly provides "precedence". Don't misread that as "refusal" - unless you can demonstrate being indefinitely flat out like a lizard drinking it actually means "There will be a delay in providing the requested service".
Have I misunderstood all this?
Guest
Posts: n/a
You can't get blood from a stone!
If the controller does not have the time to give you the information what do you expect him /her to do?
If you have a problem with the current situation regarding FW, I'm sure there are plenty of avenues for voicing your concerns...
If the controller does not have the time to give you the information what do you expect him /her to do?
If you have a problem with the current situation regarding FW, I'm sure there are plenty of avenues for voicing your concerns...
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Perth
Age: 55
Posts: 247
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just to excite the thread a touch, is ADSB going to be in the sorts of aerodromes you guys a canceling SAR on? If so then won't the ADSB be able to be used as the backup database for Censar? The aircraft are Identified and they have Position/Trend/Alt reports so could reduce a fair bit of the current systems workload. I know it won't be infallible and there will no doubt be instances where it can't work, but if we can reduce ATC's involvement then that would be a good thing for all.
Another interesting aside would be equipping the ADSB with an emergency Txer like inmarsat C where you can send a mayday with position and let everyone around you know there is a problem. Just a thought.
P.S. Sorry if this turns into an anti - Pro ADSB debate, we've had enough of them but ADSB could be used in a SAR capacity given the type and range of data displayed. Better off using all the features of the tech.
Regards
Another interesting aside would be equipping the ADSB with an emergency Txer like inmarsat C where you can send a mayday with position and let everyone around you know there is a problem. Just a thought.
P.S. Sorry if this turns into an anti - Pro ADSB debate, we've had enough of them but ADSB could be used in a SAR capacity given the type and range of data displayed. Better off using all the features of the tech.
Regards
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Oz
Age: 77
Posts: 590
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
250 Kt
Let's just check how much blood the stone needs to give the Red Cross first.
The statistics on FW at the time of transfer were:
Over a 12 week period 25% of FW traffic was VHF.
Over another 6 week period 6% of FW traffic was VHF.
That means between 75 and 94% of FW traffic would still be dealt with by the DEDICATED FW positions handling HF.
Looking at VHF FW only, the average calls per frequency per day over the two major sample periods were 2 and 3 respectively.
That is one request on each ATC frequency per 12 hours or per 8 hours respectively.
Perhaps it has changed? If not, the Blood Bank ain't looking busy. Not denigrating the ATC, perhaps suggesting that hurting little fellas out there is not as effective for the cause as TIBA etc.
Let's just check how much blood the stone needs to give the Red Cross first.
The statistics on FW at the time of transfer were:
Over a 12 week period 25% of FW traffic was VHF.
Over another 6 week period 6% of FW traffic was VHF.
That means between 75 and 94% of FW traffic would still be dealt with by the DEDICATED FW positions handling HF.
Looking at VHF FW only, the average calls per frequency per day over the two major sample periods were 2 and 3 respectively.
That is one request on each ATC frequency per 12 hours or per 8 hours respectively.
Perhaps it has changed? If not, the Blood Bank ain't looking busy. Not denigrating the ATC, perhaps suggesting that hurting little fellas out there is not as effective for the cause as TIBA etc.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Oz
Age: 77
Posts: 590
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Whisky
We cross posted. Good concept but I understand there are limitations on the info 1090ES can send. Even UAT seems to be receive focussed rather than xmit.
Also, not always ADS-B cover expected at the remote locations where SAR most important.
Right tool for the job - 406 Mhz beacon with embedded GPS and user code.
We cross posted. Good concept but I understand there are limitations on the info 1090ES can send. Even UAT seems to be receive focussed rather than xmit.
Also, not always ADS-B cover expected at the remote locations where SAR most important.
Right tool for the job - 406 Mhz beacon with embedded GPS and user code.
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Perth
Age: 55
Posts: 247
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mr. Michael, Agreed on the 406 with gps, makes my life easier, but we won't go there. I was just looking at how we can evolve any new tech we bring in to get the most out of it and neaten the system. I think it would be useful for Censar on phase declarations given the type of data txed. Could be used as a database type deal where things can be checked. May save some overworked saro or ATCer some time and trouble as well as the odd red face.
Regards
Regards
No need for grumpyness on the controller's behalf, but don't you have a mobile.
i usually use the phone or HF anyway.
DF.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Running up that hill
Posts: 308
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
nomorecatering someone once said ATC units always have one insanely cheerful one, one miserable grumpy one and everyone else in the middle somewhere. I work 122.4 and it sounds like you got Mr Grumpy on a bad day everytime.
In ML we write callsign (sorry, ACID) and destination on rectangular pink piece of paper (emphatically NOT a 'strip' though). Then record which console (sorry, Workstation) so they know which tapes to pull if it goes wrong and your name so they know which controller (sorry, Air Traffic Facillitator) to stand down if it goes wrong. We then ring the flight data's and give them the cancelation so they can give it to CENSAR, and file said piece of paper.
Workload wise the timing of a call is as important as the length. One call at the wrong time can be a big deal if you are vectoring, many DTI positions are also have controlled airspace.
Still no excuse for being grumpy with the customers though.
Does anyone know what actions the controller does to cancel a sartime?
Workload wise the timing of a call is as important as the length. One call at the wrong time can be a big deal if you are vectoring, many DTI positions are also have controlled airspace.
Still no excuse for being grumpy with the customers though.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Oz
Age: 77
Posts: 590
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Whiskey
From the JCP -
Basically it allows an extension of the current analysis of the console radar recorded data in backtracking the aircraft flight and possible arrival to earth - so you are on the money with that thinking 
From the JCP -
AMSA expects improved search and rescue response times, through more accurate and timely location of aircraft, from ADS-B transmitted data, especially in areas not presently under radar coverage. Based on historical accident data, AMSA has estimated 2-3 fatalities could be prevented per annum, assuming wide geographical
coverage of ADS-B base stations and a high proportion of the general aviation fleet
fitted7.
coverage of ADS-B base stations and a high proportion of the general aviation fleet
fitted7.
Hey, this is fun, isn't it! In the best spirit of Ppr*ne!
Then my next transmission would have been:
"Centre, XXX unable to remain in VMC, upgrading to IFR due weather, maintaining eight thousand five hundred, request clearance at ammended one zero thousand"!
Dr
Sounds like your naughty controller was doing exactly what MATS suggests. If workload does not permit taking your IFR details he is under no obligation to do so either
Then my next transmission would have been:
"Centre, XXX unable to remain in VMC, upgrading to IFR due weather, maintaining eight thousand five hundred, request clearance at ammended one zero thousand"!
Dr
When you live....
From the JCP -
Quote:
AMSA expects improved search and rescue response times, through more accurate and timely location of aircraft, from ADS-B transmitted data, especially in areas not presently under radar coverage. Based on historical accident data, AMSA has estimated 2-3 fatalities could be prevented per annum, assuming wide geographical
coverage of ADS-B base stations and a high proportion of the general aviation fleet
fitted7.
Quote:
AMSA expects improved search and rescue response times, through more accurate and timely location of aircraft, from ADS-B transmitted data, especially in areas not presently under radar coverage. Based on historical accident data, AMSA has estimated 2-3 fatalities could be prevented per annum, assuming wide geographical
coverage of ADS-B base stations and a high proportion of the general aviation fleet
fitted7.
Does anyone else know of incidents where fatalities could have been avoided?
UTR
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Oz
Age: 77
Posts: 590
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bushy
https://www.airservicesaustralia.com...erage_A100.jpg
As I understand it, the lilac shapes are coverage at 10000' - obviously lesser coverage below but it's a lot more than radar - and a lot more than where the airlines fly.
UTR
I believe the principle was response time more that detection. Although, I commend the ATC for a failure we had over water of comms and txpdr and they tracked us back on primary and checked the office to make sure we were home.
Extended surveillance offers extended flight following - possibly at a fee - that should provide benefit in those lilac squiggels.
https://www.airservicesaustralia.com...erage_A100.jpg
As I understand it, the lilac shapes are coverage at 10000' - obviously lesser coverage below but it's a lot more than radar - and a lot more than where the airlines fly.
UTR
I believe the principle was response time more that detection. Although, I commend the ATC for a failure we had over water of comms and txpdr and they tracked us back on primary and checked the office to make sure we were home.
Extended surveillance offers extended flight following - possibly at a fee - that should provide benefit in those lilac squiggels.
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 190
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
JM,
It does sound like you're telling ATC just to cope.
ASA has duped you. This thread demonstrates that the service has diminished and controllers will only provide FW when time permits.
I'm not suggesting they should "just cope". Re-read what I said please.
One of the reasons the associations agreed to FW moving to the en route sectors was that services would not be diminished.
That is one request on each ATC frequency per 12 hours or per 8 hours respectively.
ASA has duped you. This thread demonstrates that the service has diminished and controllers will only provide FW when time permits.
Sprucegoose
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Hughes Point, where life is great! Was also resident on page 13, but now I'm lost in Cyberspace....
Age: 59
Posts: 3,485
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
If the controller does not have the time to give you the information what do you expect him /her to do?
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Hiding between the Animal Bar and the Suave Bar
Posts: 409
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
But up in nth Qld I've been cancelling SAR with Brisbane centre, In fact almost everyone up here does it.. with no complains..
Been told many times by BN CEN to contact FW on HF (don't have it) or by phone (where I fly, NextG is marginal or non-existent on the ground in many places). I always thought putting a flight plan in would make it easier for them, but it doesn't seem to have any effect.
On the other hand, one good thing has come out of it - I bought a LightSpeed Zulu and extension aerial for the phone, and now I can contact FW (and everyone else :-) by phone once I'm in the air.
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Black stump
Posts: 62
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The problem is really about expectations.
ATC has usually provided pilots with services above and beyond what they are required to provide - over servicing. Pilots have come to expect the (higher) level of service that they received in the past, and expect that service to continue.
Reduced staff numbers, combined sectors, loss of facilities, loss of staff and service delivery means that ATC workload is such that providing services above and beyond what is required to be provided is a luxury that they can no longer afford.
Expect to see more of ATC providing the minimum services they are required to provide.
The times and services delivery levels they are a changin'
ATC has usually provided pilots with services above and beyond what they are required to provide - over servicing. Pilots have come to expect the (higher) level of service that they received in the past, and expect that service to continue.
Reduced staff numbers, combined sectors, loss of facilities, loss of staff and service delivery means that ATC workload is such that providing services above and beyond what is required to be provided is a luxury that they can no longer afford.
Expect to see more of ATC providing the minimum services they are required to provide.
The times and services delivery levels they are a changin'
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 279
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
FTDK,
In that case,
your request would be assessed and details more than likely taken as soon as practicable.
James Michael (We know about you guys with two first names, btw
),
When you hear us following up with requests for broadcasts on CTAFs, we are following up on IFR a/c, OUR responsibility. For an overdue SARTIME (VFR), the only impact on us is maybe a phone call from CENSAR asking if we have heard from ABC overdue at XXXX. The total list of our actions is usually to broadcast once for the a/c, check the scratchpad to see if anyone had jotted down any VFR banter and respond to CENSAR "Sorry, no joy"
Just on a side note, can anyone guess what strategies were put in place,(extra staff?training?), when FW was closed up and handed to the controllers? If you haven't been able to come up with an answer, then ...CORRECT
Then my next transmission would have been:
"Centre, XXX unable to remain in VMC, upgrading to IFR due weather, maintaining eight thousand five hundred, request clearance at ammended one zero thousand"!
"Centre, XXX unable to remain in VMC, upgrading to IFR due weather, maintaining eight thousand five hundred, request clearance at ammended one zero thousand"!
The Manual Of Air Traffic Services says:
9-10-340 Precedence ...
..., unless doing so would compromise safety
9-10-340 Precedence ...
..., unless doing so would compromise safety
James Michael (We know about you guys with two first names, btw
), When you hear us following up with requests for broadcasts on CTAFs, we are following up on IFR a/c, OUR responsibility. For an overdue SARTIME (VFR), the only impact on us is maybe a phone call from CENSAR asking if we have heard from ABC overdue at XXXX. The total list of our actions is usually to broadcast once for the a/c, check the scratchpad to see if anyone had jotted down any VFR banter and respond to CENSAR "Sorry, no joy"
Just on a side note, can anyone guess what strategies were put in place,(extra staff?training?), when FW was closed up and handed to the controllers? If you haven't been able to come up with an answer, then ...CORRECT