Black Hole approaches without visual glide slope guidance
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Permanently lost
Posts: 1,785
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
MM
In addition to what Ops Normal wrote the crosswind component on 07 is "all over the shop" at the moment in both strength and direction and because of some small dunes just to the south of the runway the wind shear factor is quite extreme, something which I don't particularly like at night.
In addition, I don't trust the T-Vasis at the moment as it appears to be giving severe undershoot indications when I don't think I am. I have mentioned it to the airport maintenance man but evidently the person who is responsible for the system has not been here for some time. I know the Conquest drivers coming here from Darwin use 07 and would be interested to know if they activate the lights and if so, is the T-Vasis accurate? I haven't tried it during the day for some time.
In addition to what Ops Normal wrote the crosswind component on 07 is "all over the shop" at the moment in both strength and direction and because of some small dunes just to the south of the runway the wind shear factor is quite extreme, something which I don't particularly like at night.
In addition, I don't trust the T-Vasis at the moment as it appears to be giving severe undershoot indications when I don't think I am. I have mentioned it to the airport maintenance man but evidently the person who is responsible for the system has not been here for some time. I know the Conquest drivers coming here from Darwin use 07 and would be interested to know if they activate the lights and if so, is the T-Vasis accurate? I haven't tried it during the day for some time.
If the you believe the T-Vasis is out PLovett due to your experience in the area and exposure get CASA to put a Notam and that way the aerodrome operator will have to do something about it.
T-Vasis should be checked on a regular basis as even simple things such as machinery operating in the vicinity, wildlife, dust etc of it can cause it to be moved out of tolerances.
Also in my experience most aerodrome operators are as tight as fishes bottoms and don't like spending money.
T-Vasis should be checked on a regular basis as even simple things such as machinery operating in the vicinity, wildlife, dust etc of it can cause it to be moved out of tolerances.
Also in my experience most aerodrome operators are as tight as fishes bottoms and don't like spending money.
Thread Starter
Talking about visual ground aids; I often marvelled how pilots landing on aircraft carriers at night in the old days where a batsman (note, not a batter!) would use two lighted wands to signify to the incoming aircraft (Sea Fury for example) if he was high or low on perceived glide path. I mean can you just imagine a newly graduated Navy pilot with maybe a total of 250 hours trying to make a safe landing at night in something like a Sea Fury. I might be wrong of course but I was sure batsmen were used for that job but later a sort of VASIS was used. Either way a black hole approach and turbulence on late final due to the disturbed air around the stern of the carrier. If any former Navy pilot reads this I tips me lid to yer...
Back in time during a short spell at the RAN station at Nowra I was offered a ride in a two seat Venom to observe the pilot landing on an aircraft carrier off Jervis Bay. And that was daylight. I said thanks but no thanks.
Back in time during a short spell at the RAN station at Nowra I was offered a ride in a two seat Venom to observe the pilot landing on an aircraft carrier off Jervis Bay. And that was daylight. I said thanks but no thanks.
Yes Centaurus and don't forget to add rain and low cloud and maybe another approach and then if that doesn't work maybe a swim in freezing cold water.
Naval aviators on the old Melbourne must have been brave lads especially night exercises off Jervis Bay and a southerly change.
Naval aviators on the old Melbourne must have been brave lads especially night exercises off Jervis Bay and a southerly change.
Grandpa Aerotart
You forget battle damaged and fatigued or wounded.
I have had the pleasure of knowing a bunch of ex RAN pilots over the years. One flew Seafires in WW2 and then Furies in Korea and carried out the first arrested landing of a Skyhawk on Melbourne before retiring as the Commander of HMAS Penguin just opposite Balmoral Beach where I grew up. I got to know him as a young 'tender boy' dropping people on their yachts and picking them up later...he had a H28 he used to spend all his days on pottering around the boat and Sydney Harbour...Pipe firmly clenched in his mouth. Many an hour I have spent on his yacht at 12 or 13 years of age enthralled by his stories. One I remember was bringing a Sea Fury aboard either Sydney or Melbourne (can't remember) with the throttle quadrant shot away...using the ignition switch.
Another fella who was a sim instructor in Melbourne and did my BAE146 type rating (maybe you know him Centaurus ex TAA DC9s from memory - Ron Maygar). My crash buddy was ex RAN Trackers from the Vietnam era. Didn't I get some stories between the two of them. One involved Ray being launched in a Sea Venom in the 50s and for some reason the pitching 'period' of the carrier stopped. They apparently all have this metronome like pitching period which must be timed just right so the firing of the cat is started when the bow is traveling up and you go off the end at/near peak 'bow up'. He reckons the bow just stopped rising as the cat fired and he went through the bow wave spray pointing at the ocean straight in front of the carrier..I guess that would get your attention.
He also told the story of sitting in the Ward Room at Nowra when the announcement came that the Sea Furies were to be retired. One of the Sea Fury officers came in and told the assembled Venom pilots "Last chance boys who wants to check out in the Fury?" and almost no one raised their hand.
Worst back hole effect I have ever seen was as a passenger in the dicky seat of a turbine something or other ag machine...I accepted the offer of a ride night dusting cotton. In hindsight I think my judgement may have been lacking
They have these big spot lights on each wing tip facing forward and one on each wing tip facing out...and a 4 way switch on the stick. As you come off the crop (at about 4 feet) the front lights are switched off and the side one goes on for the wingover reversal turn and then the front ones come back on as you swoop down to the crop again...maybe between some trees or under a power line...in the dark. I got out at the first refueling, thanked my pilot and walked away on shaky legs. I woulda got out the first time he was reloading but didn't want to seem a coward or rude.
YouTube - spraying cotton at night
I tips me hat to night ag pilots and Navy guys...they must all be fecking NUTS
I have had the pleasure of knowing a bunch of ex RAN pilots over the years. One flew Seafires in WW2 and then Furies in Korea and carried out the first arrested landing of a Skyhawk on Melbourne before retiring as the Commander of HMAS Penguin just opposite Balmoral Beach where I grew up. I got to know him as a young 'tender boy' dropping people on their yachts and picking them up later...he had a H28 he used to spend all his days on pottering around the boat and Sydney Harbour...Pipe firmly clenched in his mouth. Many an hour I have spent on his yacht at 12 or 13 years of age enthralled by his stories. One I remember was bringing a Sea Fury aboard either Sydney or Melbourne (can't remember) with the throttle quadrant shot away...using the ignition switch.
Another fella who was a sim instructor in Melbourne and did my BAE146 type rating (maybe you know him Centaurus ex TAA DC9s from memory - Ron Maygar). My crash buddy was ex RAN Trackers from the Vietnam era. Didn't I get some stories between the two of them. One involved Ray being launched in a Sea Venom in the 50s and for some reason the pitching 'period' of the carrier stopped. They apparently all have this metronome like pitching period which must be timed just right so the firing of the cat is started when the bow is traveling up and you go off the end at/near peak 'bow up'. He reckons the bow just stopped rising as the cat fired and he went through the bow wave spray pointing at the ocean straight in front of the carrier..I guess that would get your attention.
He also told the story of sitting in the Ward Room at Nowra when the announcement came that the Sea Furies were to be retired. One of the Sea Fury officers came in and told the assembled Venom pilots "Last chance boys who wants to check out in the Fury?" and almost no one raised their hand.
Worst back hole effect I have ever seen was as a passenger in the dicky seat of a turbine something or other ag machine...I accepted the offer of a ride night dusting cotton. In hindsight I think my judgement may have been lacking
They have these big spot lights on each wing tip facing forward and one on each wing tip facing out...and a 4 way switch on the stick. As you come off the crop (at about 4 feet) the front lights are switched off and the side one goes on for the wingover reversal turn and then the front ones come back on as you swoop down to the crop again...maybe between some trees or under a power line...in the dark. I got out at the first refueling, thanked my pilot and walked away on shaky legs. I woulda got out the first time he was reloading but didn't want to seem a coward or rude.YouTube - spraying cotton at night
I tips me hat to night ag pilots and Navy guys...they must all be fecking NUTS
Last edited by Chimbu chuckles; 27th Aug 2008 at 16:35.
The windscreen of the Bo might put up some resistance cause it's THICK - unlike the p*ss weak windscreens they put in 210's etc.
Admittedly a hawk is not an eagle that I know of up in the gulf one day....
Remember when the good old Australian DME system was phased out (the spectrum was sold to pay TV stations) and IFR GPS weren't approved by CASA.
So you were left to go to places like King Island at night time and do the NDB then circle to land in pouring rain or fly a circuit and try an judge the correct base leg while getting blown downwind at a high rate of knots.
So you were left to go to places like King Island at night time and do the NDB then circle to land in pouring rain or fly a circuit and try an judge the correct base leg while getting blown downwind at a high rate of knots.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: in the desert
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
night spraying..
Here's a better video....
YouTube - JONES AIR MUSIC VIDEO- AUSTRALIA
Chuck,
Thank you for the kind words. It's nice to hear someone who is held in high regard around here appreciates the work involved in night spraying.
I have often thought that certain aspects of ag flying could be closely related to certain aspects of PNG flying yet pilots seem to be well respected for there time in PNG but looked down upon by the broader industry for flying ag.
I remember when I first started night spraying some of these illusions mentioned earlier came into play a bit. On a dark night when a long way from the lights of town when I would pull up into a turn, on losing sight of the field markers (small battery operated lights marking the corners of the field) I was overcome with a feeling of motionless followed shortly after by a feeling of falling. Not very nice at 300ft agl, pitch black and 60+ degrees angle of bank. The instinctive reaction was to back off a bit, decrease the rate of turn. This only seemed to make things worse, I guess from the middle ears reacting to the changes. I soon learnt just to keep the turn going quickly and look for the marker lights as I came out of the turn.
And before anyone says something about a scan, flight instruments consist of TC, ASI, Alt and besides, it's not the time to have your head inside.
As for black hole approaches, we regurlarly work off a black soil strip 15m wide with very soft cultivation either side,( after rain there's about 10m of hard useful width ) lit with 2 or three 3 marker lights each side. I can tell you that nothing plays havoc with your depth perception like a black soil strip in a black soil field with not as much as a weed to cast a shadow. There's no vasis or papi out here!
I just thought I'd throw in a different perspective.
PW
YouTube - JONES AIR MUSIC VIDEO- AUSTRALIA
Chuck,
Thank you for the kind words. It's nice to hear someone who is held in high regard around here appreciates the work involved in night spraying.
I have often thought that certain aspects of ag flying could be closely related to certain aspects of PNG flying yet pilots seem to be well respected for there time in PNG but looked down upon by the broader industry for flying ag.
I remember when I first started night spraying some of these illusions mentioned earlier came into play a bit. On a dark night when a long way from the lights of town when I would pull up into a turn, on losing sight of the field markers (small battery operated lights marking the corners of the field) I was overcome with a feeling of motionless followed shortly after by a feeling of falling. Not very nice at 300ft agl, pitch black and 60+ degrees angle of bank. The instinctive reaction was to back off a bit, decrease the rate of turn. This only seemed to make things worse, I guess from the middle ears reacting to the changes. I soon learnt just to keep the turn going quickly and look for the marker lights as I came out of the turn.
And before anyone says something about a scan, flight instruments consist of TC, ASI, Alt and besides, it's not the time to have your head inside.
As for black hole approaches, we regurlarly work off a black soil strip 15m wide with very soft cultivation either side,( after rain there's about 10m of hard useful width ) lit with 2 or three 3 marker lights each side. I can tell you that nothing plays havoc with your depth perception like a black soil strip in a black soil field with not as much as a weed to cast a shadow. There's no vasis or papi out here!
I just thought I'd throw in a different perspective.
PW
Grandpa Aerotart
Fantastic vid!!!!!
PW1340 I think PNG flying and Ag are VERY similar in their appeal to the pilot doing either. Both are the peak of pure flying...nothing else comes close. Since my early career I have from time to time pondered the Ag route (particularly when watching a vid like you linked to) but life just didn't take me in that direction and before I knew it I was climbing the slippery pole to the airlines. I remember saying to someone over beers when answering the question about what I might do if airlines didn't give me the nod..."I dunno...Ag?"
There is a reason I spent nearly 10 years (probably 5x the average) bush flying in PNG and then joined PX as my first airline...I was hooked, and still am, on flying. I was having WAY to much fun to be in a hurry to race off to the TAA/AN/QF.
These days the Boeing just pays for my little aeroplane habit...although sliding into the seat still puts a smile on my face.
I have never perceived Ag flying as you relate but thinking on it even PNG flying is sometimes perceived similarly...as an ill disciplined cowboy form of aviation...when the truth (as I have explained rather forcefully to detractors upon occasion - even the odd Check Captain who shared his view that any hours logged not in a Boeing just don't count) is both Ag and PNG style bush flying requires vastly more self discipline (even when the op presents - and is taken - to have a little illicit fun) and a hell of a lot MORE precision that anything you will ever do in a Boeing.
I think some people just can't comprehend how much fun flying is supposed to be...and they hate us for it
Edit: I remember in the early 90s applying (because my then wife badgered me) for a job flying a turbine commander in Oz. When the CP asked my experience and I told him 7000 hrs, 6000 multi command - 1/2 single pilot turbine - all in PNG, he seemed to lose interest. Too much PNG time was often a hindrance if you wanted to come back to GA in Australia. You out qualified most GA CPs and they felt you a threat.
PW1340 I think PNG flying and Ag are VERY similar in their appeal to the pilot doing either. Both are the peak of pure flying...nothing else comes close. Since my early career I have from time to time pondered the Ag route (particularly when watching a vid like you linked to) but life just didn't take me in that direction and before I knew it I was climbing the slippery pole to the airlines. I remember saying to someone over beers when answering the question about what I might do if airlines didn't give me the nod..."I dunno...Ag?"
There is a reason I spent nearly 10 years (probably 5x the average) bush flying in PNG and then joined PX as my first airline...I was hooked, and still am, on flying. I was having WAY to much fun to be in a hurry to race off to the TAA/AN/QF.
These days the Boeing just pays for my little aeroplane habit...although sliding into the seat still puts a smile on my face.
I have never perceived Ag flying as you relate but thinking on it even PNG flying is sometimes perceived similarly...as an ill disciplined cowboy form of aviation...when the truth (as I have explained rather forcefully to detractors upon occasion - even the odd Check Captain who shared his view that any hours logged not in a Boeing just don't count) is both Ag and PNG style bush flying requires vastly more self discipline (even when the op presents - and is taken - to have a little illicit fun) and a hell of a lot MORE precision that anything you will ever do in a Boeing.
I think some people just can't comprehend how much fun flying is supposed to be...and they hate us for it
Edit: I remember in the early 90s applying (because my then wife badgered me) for a job flying a turbine commander in Oz. When the CP asked my experience and I told him 7000 hrs, 6000 multi command - 1/2 single pilot turbine - all in PNG, he seemed to lose interest. Too much PNG time was often a hindrance if you wanted to come back to GA in Australia. You out qualified most GA CPs and they felt you a threat.
Last edited by Chimbu chuckles; 28th Aug 2008 at 13:15.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: in the classroom of life
Age: 55
Posts: 6,864
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Great Vid PW
The Jones guys are top blokes, always helpful when you pass through and need fuel or whatever!
Have a nice repair shop and do quite a number of plane restorations!
Not bad for a small bush town!
J
PS off to watch that again!
The Jones guys are top blokes, always helpful when you pass through and need fuel or whatever!
Have a nice repair shop and do quite a number of plane restorations!
Not bad for a small bush town!
J
PS off to watch that again!
Thread Starter
Yerse! I did a little bit of ag flying with Air Farm at Tamworth circa 1955. At time was RAAF QFI at Uranquinty NSW instructing trainee pilots on Tigers and Wirras. Basis Brown (founder of East West Airways in Anson days) ran this crop dusting operation with a couple of Tiger Moths and an FU Fletcher. He needed part time Tiger Moth qualified pilots with minumum 200 hours on type. He advertised in the Sydney Morning Herald. Couple of our RAAF instructors applied and took two weeks leave. They took the train to Tamworth and made heaps of dough and the Commanding Officer of Uranquinty never knew about his pilots flying civil aircraft.
I rang Bas Brown and he said come up and see me. Arrived and he gave me a battered Moth to do a circuit. Compass covered with phosphate dust and no fabric on fuselage aft of the cockpit - just the fuselage frame. This prevented phosphate from clinging to floor of fuselage he said. Was hired on the spot and told to fly the Tiger to a place near Guyra north of Tamworth where I would find an airstrip and a crop duster called Peter (?) Hite. Hite was former Liberator pilot. My map reading was never good and I couldn't locate said strip and the Tiger P8 compass was hard to read in turbulence. Saw a nice long paddock near a house and did a precautionary landing. Was top notch at short field landings in Tigers so planted it. Walked to farm house and knocked on door and asked nice lady where was the crop dusting strip around here? Over that hill and far away she said and by the way where is your car? I don't have a car but I have got an aeroplane in your back garden. No problem she said just watch the rabbit holes on the long grass.
Found the strip eventually. Spent next 14 days sharing a caravan with George Hite and flew 100 hours in 14 days. Up at 0500 fly all day with 200 kgs of phosphate in hopper (front cockpit in the Tiger Moth) and density altitude around 6000 ft. Finish at 1800 then into town for shower in pub and hot meal before returning to caravan.
Aircraft was overloaded to buggery needing full back cheese-cutter (elevator trim) for all phases of flight except landing and full throttle to hold IAS around 70 knots due load. Dropped phosphate from 100 feet which wasn't too bad. On my very first trip dropping phosphate I forgot to close the bomb door type hatch under the Tiger and after touch down taxied up to the loading truck and the farmer stuck this elephants trunk thing into the hopper opening on top of the fuselage (front seat taken out and hopper welded in ) and poured the phosphate in.
The Tiger was hydrauliced off its wheels as the phosphate pile rose like a big pile under the fuselage. Farmer called me a stupid bastard and made me get out of the cockpit and shovel the phosphate back into the Tiger. Me big shot Mustang and Lincoln pilot felt very foolish and the bogan farmer's opinion of RAAF pilots in general was at all time low.
Paid 20 quid per hour I think (very very good money) providing you carried 200 kgs phosphate. When you remember the average pilot weight for Tiger was say 75 kgs you can see that 200 kgs affected the performance just a liitle bit and forget the centre of gravity which was so far forward of the limit as to be lethal. You coped.
Unfortunately all good things get stuffed up. I returned to Uranquinty richer and more pilots followed and CO began to get suspicious. One pilot (Ted Dillon ex Meteor pilot) broke his ankle playing silly buggers at the Sergeants Mess Dining In night and was given sick leave. He hacked off the plaster and went to Tamworth to fly the crop dusters unknown to the CO. Ted lost an engine and pranged the Tiger and broke the other ankle. He hobbled back to Uranquinty but the game was up when the CO asked the hard questions about BOTH ankles being busted.
Riot act read and courts martials threatened if we ever went crop dusting again. Sad ending after I did my final two weeks at Tamwworth before CO found out. George Hite my crop dusting mentor at Air Farm was killed when the FU Fletcher he was flying hit a large dead tree as he was climbing nose high with a full load into the late afternoon sun. He never saw the tree.
The End.
I rang Bas Brown and he said come up and see me. Arrived and he gave me a battered Moth to do a circuit. Compass covered with phosphate dust and no fabric on fuselage aft of the cockpit - just the fuselage frame. This prevented phosphate from clinging to floor of fuselage he said. Was hired on the spot and told to fly the Tiger to a place near Guyra north of Tamworth where I would find an airstrip and a crop duster called Peter (?) Hite. Hite was former Liberator pilot. My map reading was never good and I couldn't locate said strip and the Tiger P8 compass was hard to read in turbulence. Saw a nice long paddock near a house and did a precautionary landing. Was top notch at short field landings in Tigers so planted it. Walked to farm house and knocked on door and asked nice lady where was the crop dusting strip around here? Over that hill and far away she said and by the way where is your car? I don't have a car but I have got an aeroplane in your back garden. No problem she said just watch the rabbit holes on the long grass.
Found the strip eventually. Spent next 14 days sharing a caravan with George Hite and flew 100 hours in 14 days. Up at 0500 fly all day with 200 kgs of phosphate in hopper (front cockpit in the Tiger Moth) and density altitude around 6000 ft. Finish at 1800 then into town for shower in pub and hot meal before returning to caravan.
Aircraft was overloaded to buggery needing full back cheese-cutter (elevator trim) for all phases of flight except landing and full throttle to hold IAS around 70 knots due load. Dropped phosphate from 100 feet which wasn't too bad. On my very first trip dropping phosphate I forgot to close the bomb door type hatch under the Tiger and after touch down taxied up to the loading truck and the farmer stuck this elephants trunk thing into the hopper opening on top of the fuselage (front seat taken out and hopper welded in ) and poured the phosphate in.
The Tiger was hydrauliced off its wheels as the phosphate pile rose like a big pile under the fuselage. Farmer called me a stupid bastard and made me get out of the cockpit and shovel the phosphate back into the Tiger. Me big shot Mustang and Lincoln pilot felt very foolish and the bogan farmer's opinion of RAAF pilots in general was at all time low.
Paid 20 quid per hour I think (very very good money) providing you carried 200 kgs phosphate. When you remember the average pilot weight for Tiger was say 75 kgs you can see that 200 kgs affected the performance just a liitle bit and forget the centre of gravity which was so far forward of the limit as to be lethal. You coped.
Unfortunately all good things get stuffed up. I returned to Uranquinty richer and more pilots followed and CO began to get suspicious. One pilot (Ted Dillon ex Meteor pilot) broke his ankle playing silly buggers at the Sergeants Mess Dining In night and was given sick leave. He hacked off the plaster and went to Tamworth to fly the crop dusters unknown to the CO. Ted lost an engine and pranged the Tiger and broke the other ankle. He hobbled back to Uranquinty but the game was up when the CO asked the hard questions about BOTH ankles being busted.
Riot act read and courts martials threatened if we ever went crop dusting again. Sad ending after I did my final two weeks at Tamwworth before CO found out. George Hite my crop dusting mentor at Air Farm was killed when the FU Fletcher he was flying hit a large dead tree as he was climbing nose high with a full load into the late afternoon sun. He never saw the tree.
The End.
