Business Issues ADSB (Now: Completely Off Topic Thread!)
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Profits?
Govt organisations should not be trying to make profits. They should be trying to recover costs, and any profit made should be retainedin the aviation system to provide further facilities and services for aviation.
We do not pay taxes in order to set up government businesses that compete with us.
Our government profits greatly from the sale of drugs in this country(alcohol and tobaco), and petrol. Will they soon be looking for profits from the fire brigades and the hospitals and the military?
Do they already?
We do not pay taxes in order to set up government businesses that compete with us.
Our government profits greatly from the sale of drugs in this country(alcohol and tobaco), and petrol. Will they soon be looking for profits from the fire brigades and the hospitals and the military?
Do they already?
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Bushy
In a sort of underhanded way - yes.
CFA, SES, Childrens Hosp, and RFDS - all solidly funded by donations. They more we donate - the less the Governments have to toss in.
Hamble
I have played a low key in sharing my research info on this thread so you would not make a dick of yourself - like me you probably want Dick to do his own research rather than use the joint efforts on this thread as his information funnel. Undoubtedly you have gained much knowledge in your own research. I commend your efforts as a fellow researcher.
In a sort of underhanded way - yes.
CFA, SES, Childrens Hosp, and RFDS - all solidly funded by donations. They more we donate - the less the Governments have to toss in.
Hamble
I have played a low key in sharing my research info on this thread so you would not make a dick of yourself - like me you probably want Dick to do his own research rather than use the joint efforts on this thread as his information funnel. Undoubtedly you have gained much knowledge in your own research. I commend your efforts as a fellow researcher.
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Hamb
I am having difficulty deciding a good quote.
Lawson stirs the soul -
Or, if you prefer - was it Longfellow? -
I think the latter - somehow the last line appeals 
I am having difficulty deciding a good quote.
Lawson stirs the soul -
(They were hanging men in Buckland who would not cheer King George –
They were making pikes in Charlestown at every blacksmith's forge:
They were making pikes in Charlestown at every blacksmith's forge:
Week in, week out, from morn till night,
You can hear his bellows blow;
You can hear his bellows blow;
Wow, this is getting a bit high brow now!
Closet socialists and commentators abound
I will have to write a letter to the editor!!!!!
Don't you just love the way Lawson puts
on his own ilk.
EDIT- just to add.. Methinks your Blacksmith is too noble a man to compare to the one in question, JM
Closet socialists and commentators abound
I will have to write a letter to the editor!!!!!
Don't you just love the way Lawson puts
on his own ilk.EDIT- just to add.. Methinks your Blacksmith is too noble a man to compare to the one in question, JM
Last edited by OZBUSDRIVER; 23rd Aug 2008 at 01:48.
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OZBus
True, but too many have suffered the 'hear his bellows'
BK
I meant to respond to your last post but Pprune was working at the pace of a parliamentary enquiry yesterday
ADS-B In must be encouraged if the subsidy proceeds despite the crew trying to block the track.
Given previous concepts of it being available on a Palm pilot or whatever, it should achieve a take up rate similar to the way handheld GPS flourish. The gap will be a simple TSO unit perhaps?
I'm prepared to bet Microair have a prototype panel ADS-B In unit.
Bushy
Agree re the txpdr maintenance. The org'n you mentioned advises they are pushing for an extended RAD period due to the more robust reliable new generation GPS engines, encoders and txpdrs.
True, but too many have suffered the 'hear his bellows'
BK
I meant to respond to your last post but Pprune was working at the pace of a parliamentary enquiry yesterday
ADS-B In must be encouraged if the subsidy proceeds despite the crew trying to block the track.
Given previous concepts of it being available on a Palm pilot or whatever, it should achieve a take up rate similar to the way handheld GPS flourish. The gap will be a simple TSO unit perhaps?
I'm prepared to bet Microair have a prototype panel ADS-B In unit.
Bushy
Agree re the txpdr maintenance. The org'n you mentioned advises they are pushing for an extended RAD period due to the more robust reliable new generation GPS engines, encoders and txpdrs.
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Self contained and calibrated??
It would be nice to have a unit that was self contained and calibrated. I'm sure with modern technology it would be possible to build one that can be removed and replaced by a pilot or mechanical lame? They can make portable GPS's that work very well so why not an adsb that does not require a specialist to screw it in and calibrate it?
We have "throw away" gps's now. No real maintenance problems.
We have "throw away" gps's now. No real maintenance problems.
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Bushy
Two bob each way in my research on that.
On the one hand there are throwaway GPS - but not for mixing it with RPT or making precision approaches.
ADS-B IN as a warning - better than nothing when away from ATC so why not a handheld non-TSO item.
But, the machine to test the ADS-B unit is actually quite expensive for the AV LAME and is needed to certify AOK. I think that is still needed when RAD conducted to ensure the tolerance accuracy.
I guess there has to be a mix of the TSO and check processes. Particularly if you are tinkering with a TSO146 GPS etc.
Take 'em out of the panel yourself? - makes sense to me but not in the current CASA regs where they are like the plumbers union that don't allow a builder to put tiles on a roof.
Need a balance - hopefully we are moving toward it even if slowly.
Two bob each way in my research on that.
On the one hand there are throwaway GPS - but not for mixing it with RPT or making precision approaches.
ADS-B IN as a warning - better than nothing when away from ATC so why not a handheld non-TSO item.
But, the machine to test the ADS-B unit is actually quite expensive for the AV LAME and is needed to certify AOK. I think that is still needed when RAD conducted to ensure the tolerance accuracy.
I guess there has to be a mix of the TSO and check processes. Particularly if you are tinkering with a TSO146 GPS etc.
Take 'em out of the panel yourself? - makes sense to me but not in the current CASA regs where they are like the plumbers union that don't allow a builder to put tiles on a roof.
Need a balance - hopefully we are moving toward it even if slowly.
This is interesting, Bushy. How do you calibrate a GPS? Surveyed mark out on the tarmac? I guess the actual GPS engine can be replaced as a separate board?
Someone posted a long time ago that the device for installing the discrete ID for a ADS-B transponder is pretty exy.
Someone posted a long time ago that the device for installing the discrete ID for a ADS-B transponder is pretty exy.
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Is it required for technical reasons?
Is there a technical need for all these requirements, or is it just the control freaks in Canberra who require it.
I thought these things had sophisticated self test equipment built in.
The vfr gps units are self contained, and fairly robust. Will our adsb units be built to a lesser standard???
I thought these things had sophisticated self test equipment built in.
The vfr gps units are self contained, and fairly robust. Will our adsb units be built to a lesser standard???
Just an interesting aside to this argument. It would appear there are some in the US that think the same way about ADS-B. From today's AVWEB
Reason Foundation On Why You're Delaying ADS-B
Why You're Delaying ADS-B. Sounds a bit like over here.
Robert Poole. Reason Foundation
Interesting, considering the bonafides of this think tank makes for considerable thought if they propose "financial aid" for US GA.
Reason Foundation On Why You're Delaying ADS-B
Why You're Delaying ADS-B. Sounds a bit like over here.
In Poole's more ideal scenario, a balanced group of "aviation stakeholders" would presumably act in place of Congress or the FAA. Directly affected by the costs and technology, stakeholders would universally see the benefits of retiring old radars before attrition turned them into money-sucking vortexes. Stakeholders would futher recognize the improvements in safety and airspace capacity won through cockpit displays of weather and traffic (ADS-B). Those incentives might then, according to Poole, drive a desire for rapid implementation of ADS-B/in plus ADS-B/out strong enough to fuel the inclusion of financial aid to help GA users offset costs. All of this for the benefit of the aviation community as a whole. Rapid implementation under this plan would also mean large-scale production of hardware, leading to lower overall costs, further softening the blow.
Interesting, considering the bonafides of this think tank makes for considerable thought if they propose "financial aid" for US GA.
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Because we don't need it
All of this for the benefit of the aviation community as a whole.
T28D, exactly! That is why there is such effort by ASTRA and the airlines to facilitate industry funding of the roll-out in GA aircraft. For ASA, it means being able to expand the J-curve to where surveillance is needed. The mineral provinces and major regional aerodromes for a good start. For the airlines it means lower fees after implimentation and better user defined routings. Those routings also have a better environmental impact.
Yes, there is no extra benefit for GA having a garden variety transponder as opposed to a ADS-B transponder. Remember, you only need ASI, Altimeter, Compass and Clock everything else is just extra to meet different certification requirements. It is just handy to have all those other instruments, although you do not legally need them it just makes it easier to do your task of aviating, navigating and communicating. ADS-B is no different for GA VFR. In this case, because someone else NEEDS it. It NEEDS to be paid by someone else! Is that simple enough?
EDIT- before you get on your horse there T28D, Get the link and read it. I am only trying to point out how it works for people like you!
Yes, there is no extra benefit for GA having a garden variety transponder as opposed to a ADS-B transponder. Remember, you only need ASI, Altimeter, Compass and Clock everything else is just extra to meet different certification requirements. It is just handy to have all those other instruments, although you do not legally need them it just makes it easier to do your task of aviating, navigating and communicating. ADS-B is no different for GA VFR. In this case, because someone else NEEDS it. It NEEDS to be paid by someone else! Is that simple enough?
EDIT- before you get on your horse there T28D, Get the link and read it. I am only trying to point out how it works for people like you!
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“I think you have missed the entire argument from the beginning. It has nothing to do with "NEW" but whether a shonky premise is pushed as "THE" answer!”
Your words, OZBUSDRIVER, from another thread on Global warming. I could easily use it on this thread.
If the answer is ADSB, what is the question.
Edit to add, I did read the link. QUOTE:.... "Because aircraft owners balk at being forced to buy and install new gear until they get real benefits from it (and this is especially true of GA owners)”.
If the subsidy comes to nought, we in Australia are in the same boat. So I assume you support the AOPA policy of being for the implementation of ADSB if someone pays, but are against it if the subsidy does not materialise?
Your words, OZBUSDRIVER, from another thread on Global warming. I could easily use it on this thread.
If the answer is ADSB, what is the question.
Edit to add, I did read the link. QUOTE:.... "Because aircraft owners balk at being forced to buy and install new gear until they get real benefits from it (and this is especially true of GA owners)”.
If the subsidy comes to nought, we in Australia are in the same boat. So I assume you support the AOPA policy of being for the implementation of ADSB if someone pays, but are against it if the subsidy does not materialise?
Bob, thanks for drawing attention to the other greatest hoax of all time
Do you remember a post of mine from years ago. "What we must do is ensure that AirServices provides a subsidy for fitment. If CASA mandates then all bets are off and every body pays!"
That still holds true today. And, like the US, if aircraft owners have to pay, then, its going to take a long time before anyone will move. Air Services do not get their cost savings. The MSSR must keep spinning and payed for until the day of change over. The Airlines do not get their reduction in nav charges until after that day. Navaids must be replaced and must be paid for until decommed....In other words EVERYBODY PAYS!
What benefit is that?
This thread was started to find proof that the stakeholders had signed off on ADS-B. I would say that proof has been furnished! The only stakeholder that has not signed off is DoTaRS. By the words of the Minister in the intro to the Green Paper, I think that is also about to change.
There is also proof that, indeed, the Minister can sign an instrument that allows Air Services to set up a fund to pay for installation in GA.
Anyway, what we say here may have no bearing what-so-ever on the outcome. I do hope, as I have been advised, that those in the various departments actually do take notice of these threads. Indirectly, we may influence the outcome. Otherwise , it's just another round at the pub and its your shout
Do you remember a post of mine from years ago. "What we must do is ensure that AirServices provides a subsidy for fitment. If CASA mandates then all bets are off and every body pays!"
That still holds true today. And, like the US, if aircraft owners have to pay, then, its going to take a long time before anyone will move. Air Services do not get their cost savings. The MSSR must keep spinning and payed for until the day of change over. The Airlines do not get their reduction in nav charges until after that day. Navaids must be replaced and must be paid for until decommed....In other words EVERYBODY PAYS!
What benefit is that?
This thread was started to find proof that the stakeholders had signed off on ADS-B. I would say that proof has been furnished! The only stakeholder that has not signed off is DoTaRS. By the words of the Minister in the intro to the Green Paper, I think that is also about to change.
There is also proof that, indeed, the Minister can sign an instrument that allows Air Services to set up a fund to pay for installation in GA.
Anyway, what we say here may have no bearing what-so-ever on the outcome. I do hope, as I have been advised, that those in the various departments actually do take notice of these threads. Indirectly, we may influence the outcome. Otherwise , it's just another round at the pub and its your shout
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Sorry, General Aviation DOESN't NEED IT !!! and I have read reams of crud from do gooders on this, technology for technologies sake is garbage.
Maybe I will download all the ADSB crud onto my Blu Ray recorder for prosterity. Won't take up much room in the rubbish bin then.
Maybe I will download all the ADSB crud onto my Blu Ray recorder for prosterity. Won't take up much room in the rubbish bin then.
I do not get it, T28D. You are MECIR. You have flown in ADS-B UAT on the US eastern seaboard and raved about it. Yet, you do not want a bar of 1090ES here in Oz. Why is that?