Twin Question
was not half the problem that they were using less than full power on take off (save the engines stuff) and after one quit power was not increased on the "good" engine?
Dr
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me ....I've managed to survive a s/e imc night engine failure........and I wish I was flying a Seneca1 that night...........might not have written off my lovely M20j
flopt
PS blew the top off a cylinder.........no shortage of fuel !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
flopt
PS blew the top off a cylinder.........no shortage of fuel !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I think that same plane had a similar fate north of Roma in recent times due a LAME not tensioning the cylinder bolts.
Did you put the curse of the black jelly bean on that machine?
J
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Pilots are not formula one drivers
near enough has never really been good enough for me personally, i'm a bit of a prefectionist and have to suffer under the higher work load it brings. I also seem to wash my hands alot
I think that same plane had a similar fate north of Roma in recent times due a LAME not tensioning the cylinder bolts
Dr
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Doc, fate works in strange ways. In 20,000 hours only ever had two engine failures. At the time we operated a fleet of 7 helos and had a failure of #2 on take off, a couple of years later had a failure of #1 on take off, and the same helo.
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Having only ever flown Mil aircraft, i am surprised there is not some sort of currency scheme for asymmetric flight in civvie land.
Where i fly, 1 asymetric day landing, 1 asymetric night landing and 1 EFATO per 35 days. Perhaps it is because of all this asymmetric exposure that i feel pretty comfortable flying on one engine IMC included.
I think the key if asymmetric is to trim trim trim so that the aircraft flies its self, that way you can concentrate on getting yourself in a position to fly an approach/landing.
Where i fly, 1 asymetric day landing, 1 asymetric night landing and 1 EFATO per 35 days. Perhaps it is because of all this asymmetric exposure that i feel pretty comfortable flying on one engine IMC included.
I think the key if asymmetric is to trim trim trim so that the aircraft flies its self, that way you can concentrate on getting yourself in a position to fly an approach/landing.
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I think the key if asymmetric is to trim trim trim
............ next time round I got it......would have been a wild ride though down the back!
J
Grandpa Aerotart
No I said apply and hold rudder (then trim) not 'peddle' like a madman
The CVR would have sounded thus "Oops too much, oops not enough, oops too much, oops..." sound of impact
The CVR would have sounded thus "Oops too much, oops not enough, oops too much, oops..." sound of impact
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spot on Jaba
She just gets the willies over the Canarvons,mate!
But the lesson might be that unless/ or even if your Lame is a renowned engine man , get one from the factory!
Flopt
But the lesson might be that unless/ or even if your Lame is a renowned engine man , get one from the factory!
Flopt
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statstically you have a greater chance of having an accident in a single but a greater chance of being killed in a twin.
In the event of an off airport landing you are waaay better off in a single, but less likely to need to in a multi. Multis have much greater dynamic considerations, higher kinetic energy and larger field and approach requirements, but hey that's all OK if you are cleaned up and trimmed an (relatively ) comfortable assymentric flight at a safe altitude. I used to fly a multi in which you could lose an engine and still not technically be assymetric, but you would have a rate of climb of negative 25 fpm on a good day (not a CLT)
Multi engine is the way to go provided:
you are over water
you have sufficient runway to either stop safely OR continue t/o in the event of engine failure.
you are at a weight which enables you to remain above LSALT when IMC with one shut down.
you don't have any ice on
at least some/one of the engines is still working
Plenty of experienced pilots have done the vmca flip when they could/should have shut the good one and landed straight ahead, and remember most multi pilots are much more experienced and practiced than many/most single drivers and the operators usually have a higher standard of check and training, and a greater level scrutiny from the regulator (not always I know) so these should be the best GA pilots around, but statistically there is still not much in it.
I have crossed the Tasman sea, the Timor sea, the Bay of Bengal, Bass Straight, the Rockies, the Andes, the Amazon basin, the Great Dividing Range, The Central Range and the Owen Stanlys,Torres straight, bits of the Indian Ocean, Lake Torrens, every major desert in Australia and both of the American continents ALL single engine as I didn't have a choice in the matter, but always did my best to stack the odds in my favour as much as possible.
Single or twin , PPPPPP
HD
In the event of an off airport landing you are waaay better off in a single, but less likely to need to in a multi. Multis have much greater dynamic considerations, higher kinetic energy and larger field and approach requirements, but hey that's all OK if you are cleaned up and trimmed an (relatively ) comfortable assymentric flight at a safe altitude. I used to fly a multi in which you could lose an engine and still not technically be assymetric, but you would have a rate of climb of negative 25 fpm on a good day (not a CLT)
Multi engine is the way to go provided:
you are over water
you have sufficient runway to either stop safely OR continue t/o in the event of engine failure.
you are at a weight which enables you to remain above LSALT when IMC with one shut down.
you don't have any ice on
at least some/one of the engines is still working
Plenty of experienced pilots have done the vmca flip when they could/should have shut the good one and landed straight ahead, and remember most multi pilots are much more experienced and practiced than many/most single drivers and the operators usually have a higher standard of check and training, and a greater level scrutiny from the regulator (not always I know) so these should be the best GA pilots around, but statistically there is still not much in it.
I have crossed the Tasman sea, the Timor sea, the Bay of Bengal, Bass Straight, the Rockies, the Andes, the Amazon basin, the Great Dividing Range, The Central Range and the Owen Stanlys,Torres straight, bits of the Indian Ocean, Lake Torrens, every major desert in Australia and both of the American continents ALL single engine as I didn't have a choice in the matter, but always did my best to stack the odds in my favour as much as possible.
Single or twin , PPPPPP
HD
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here's a quick addition to this thread, why do they make twins in the first place? SAFETY/REDUNDANCY
With todays highly reliable and high power output engines the designers could design & build a SE airliner that would easily carry 150+ pax but they simply don't. Why?? SAFETY!
SE are very safe, right up to the point where they fail. I would fly a SE but only when it's safe to do so.
CW
P.S....Hi DR
With todays highly reliable and high power output engines the designers could design & build a SE airliner that would easily carry 150+ pax but they simply don't. Why?? SAFETY!SE are very safe, right up to the point where they fail. I would fly a SE but only when it's safe to do so.
CW
P.S....Hi DR
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Capt. Wally,
Interesting thought. The C208 Grand Caravan is a single, as is the Pilatus PC-12, Piper Malibu Meridian and the TBM 850. All of these are operating commercially without the second donk.
The largest single-engine piston ever built is the Antonov/PZL An-2. Can anyone suggest what the largest jet-engine single is/was?
Walrus
Interesting thought. The C208 Grand Caravan is a single, as is the Pilatus PC-12, Piper Malibu Meridian and the TBM 850. All of these are operating commercially without the second donk.
The largest single-engine piston ever built is the Antonov/PZL An-2. Can anyone suggest what the largest jet-engine single is/was?
Walrus
Last edited by Walrus 7; 13th Aug 2008 at 23:28. Reason: Read the previous post wrong.
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landof4x,
im aware of the debate of 5degs AoB and 2-3degs AoB. For me 5 is a good starting point and an easier number to aim for intially. In all the engine out situations i've faced, which has only been on training flights and checks, 5 has worked fine....so far. Of course this is only done after the engine out drills. I too have seen many pilots lose it when face with an EFATO or on base by failing to take control of the situation letting the aircraft do its own thing while they complete the drills.
im aware of the debate of 5degs AoB and 2-3degs AoB. For me 5 is a good starting point and an easier number to aim for intially. In all the engine out situations i've faced, which has only been on training flights and checks, 5 has worked fine....so far. Of course this is only done after the engine out drills. I too have seen many pilots lose it when face with an EFATO or on base by failing to take control of the situation letting the aircraft do its own thing while they complete the drills.
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Walrus 7,
The largest single-engine piston ever built is the Antonov/PZL An-2. Can anyone suggest what the largest jet-engine single is/was?
I like the AN-2 's engine out procedure. -
Pull full back on the controls and trim aft until impact with the ground.
Apparently there is so much wing area. It falls like a leaf wings level to the ground and impact is totally survivable for both your and the aircraft.
Would like to see that in action.
The largest single-engine piston ever built is the Antonov/PZL An-2. Can anyone suggest what the largest jet-engine single is/was?
I like the AN-2 's engine out procedure. -
Pull full back on the controls and trim aft until impact with the ground.
Apparently there is so much wing area. It falls like a leaf wings level to the ground and impact is totally survivable for both your and the aircraft.
Would like to see that in action.
Hands up those who have had engine failures? ----- seems to be a few.
Hands up those who have had an alternator failure in flight ---- more hands now.
Hands up those who have had a vacuum pump failure in flight? --- lots of hands now.
That's why I prefer a twin. Try an alternator failure in cloud & rain at night midway to Woomera from Port Augusta in a single. There are more things than engine failures that can get you.
Hands up those who have had an alternator failure in flight ---- more hands now.
Hands up those who have had a vacuum pump failure in flight? --- lots of hands now.
That's why I prefer a twin. Try an alternator failure in cloud & rain at night midway to Woomera from Port Augusta in a single. There are more things than engine failures that can get you.
Hands up those who have had engine failures? ----- seems to be a few.
Hands up those who have had an alternator failure in flight ---- more hands now.
Hands up those who have had a vacuum pump failure in flight? --- lots of hands now.
That's why I prefer a twin.
Hands up those who have had an alternator failure in flight ---- more hands now.
Hands up those who have had a vacuum pump failure in flight? --- lots of hands now.
That's why I prefer a twin.
2) Hands up those who have a an alternator failure in flight - me!
3) Hands up those who have had a vacuum pump failure in flight - me!
So whats the big deal about 2 and 3?
Alternator failure in flight - turn off your electrics and use hand-held VHF or mobile phone, GPS on battery (G296 runs for about 14 hrs), use a torch to see what you are doing - LED torches run for hours!
Vaacum pump failure in flight - turn off the AP if appropriate and hand fly. Look at your electric AH if you have one (I do!), and make sure you are able to fly well on partial panel just in case. As a last resort use the flight instrument display on your G496 - it refreshes fast enough for you to be able to fly by it. How do I know? Cause I have done it on a renewal with an ATO.
I do recurrent training every 6 mths!
Fit an all cylinder engine monitor and there is a good chance that you will detect a problem with your engine (I am about to!) before it totally sh*ts itself.
My pockets aren't deep enough to lap around in a twin but I get 99% utilisation out of a high preformance, well equipped single!
Its all about risk management!
Dr
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As long as:
DOC: As long as you have RUDDER AUTHORITY/AIRSPEED, NOT TO BE CONFUSED WITH MAINTAINING HEIGHT, You have options, eg: it wont maintain altitude, look for somewhere in the event that it is going to continue loosing altitude, use the decsent to give you airspeed and fly it on to your designated landing area if you need to:
If its performance increases as you get lower and you find you are now maintaining height and airspeed, and you have sufficent rudder authority in reserve, fly the thing.
Don't know why but this reminds me of this event, no others to myself, but this one pertaining to one of ( perhaps my only, so I had better be careful) mates, I know he looks a PP on occassion!
I hope this is okay to share here?
It is a war storey kinda funny, to me anyway! because, it concerns a good mate, we have shared alot in common up in the pacific over the years, (including a few breweries)
Both matey and the CP turned up to work to choose their trikes for the day, the CP tossed a coin to see who would fly the "DOG". (the CP is now a 777 Capt with Mrats)
My mate lost the toss and got the dog, it recieved its name due to its ability to have the rear Prop go into feather when you "reduced power"! It had apparently been cleared as repaired more often that you would like.
Apparently loaded with both passengers and "BABBI" ( to those in the know).
As I remember him tell it, and it makes me laugh even now:
QUOTE: I poked the three pushy pully thingys forward, held them there, the old thing was heavy and it was hot as hell, she wanted to fly so rotated the nose the feet just left the sphere, and I see the Rear eng manifold pressure go to 42"hg!
then this tiny "RED" light comes on, away on the LH side of the panel, its sinking so he lowers the nose and its heading for the remainder of the runway with the big blue wet thing rising up before him rather quickly, so rather than fight a loosing battle, he says he threw the thing at the runway and hit the brakes, overshot the end of the runway into the sand:
The cause: REAR PROP went to feather under full power, kinda twisted things back there he says! I bet it did.
The management and newspapers lambasted him because apparently it is able to continue on TWO engines, he formally invited them to come out load it up the same with the managers and their families, have the manager in the front RH seat, and he would gladly demonstrate it in the other one remaining machine, he said he even offered to pay for the cost of the demonstration:
They formally declined, he quit:
This was apparently out of Tarawa's Bonreki's airport.
Chr's
H/Snort
If its performance increases as you get lower and you find you are now maintaining height and airspeed, and you have sufficent rudder authority in reserve, fly the thing.
Don't know why but this reminds me of this event, no others to myself, but this one pertaining to one of ( perhaps my only, so I had better be careful) mates, I know he looks a PP on occassion!
I hope this is okay to share here?
It is a war storey kinda funny, to me anyway! because, it concerns a good mate, we have shared alot in common up in the pacific over the years, (including a few breweries)
Both matey and the CP turned up to work to choose their trikes for the day, the CP tossed a coin to see who would fly the "DOG". (the CP is now a 777 Capt with Mrats)
My mate lost the toss and got the dog, it recieved its name due to its ability to have the rear Prop go into feather when you "reduced power"! It had apparently been cleared as repaired more often that you would like.
Apparently loaded with both passengers and "BABBI" ( to those in the know).
As I remember him tell it, and it makes me laugh even now:
QUOTE: I poked the three pushy pully thingys forward, held them there, the old thing was heavy and it was hot as hell, she wanted to fly so rotated the nose the feet just left the sphere, and I see the Rear eng manifold pressure go to 42"hg!
then this tiny "RED" light comes on, away on the LH side of the panel, its sinking so he lowers the nose and its heading for the remainder of the runway with the big blue wet thing rising up before him rather quickly, so rather than fight a loosing battle, he says he threw the thing at the runway and hit the brakes, overshot the end of the runway into the sand:The cause: REAR PROP went to feather under full power, kinda twisted things back there he says! I bet it did.
The management and newspapers lambasted him because apparently it is able to continue on TWO engines, he formally invited them to come out load it up the same with the managers and their families, have the manager in the front RH seat, and he would gladly demonstrate it in the other one remaining machine, he said he even offered to pay for the cost of the demonstration:
They formally declined, he quit:
This was apparently out of Tarawa's Bonreki's airport.
Chr's
H/Snort
