Twin Question
Join Date: May 2007
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but the doc lands on roads and taxis up to the cockie's gate
A well known ploy to avoid nasty shocks......is to land and and borrow 1/2 a drum of avgas...........
\
me ....I've managed to survive a s/e imc night engine failure........and I wish I was flying a Seneca1 that night...........might not have written off my lovely M20j
flopt
PS blew the top off a cylinder.........no shortage of fuel !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
\
me ....I've managed to survive a s/e imc night engine failure........and I wish I was flying a Seneca1 that night...........might not have written off my lovely M20j
flopt
PS blew the top off a cylinder.........no shortage of fuel !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Last edited by Flopt; 8th Aug 2008 at 12:19. Reason: clarification
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If you fly "once in a while" stick to a single. If you fly "for a living" a twin will serve you better.
A single engined twin will kill a weekend warrior faster than a single with an engine failure.
A single engined twin will kill a weekend warrior faster than a single with an engine failure.
Grandpa Aerotart
100% of my SE engine failures ended up in a forced landing....100% of my ME engine failures ended in a 'normal' landing on a runway...more than 1 in both cases...in fact more than several in the ME case.
Flown well a piston twin is a safer bet. Historically piston twins have, too often, not been flown well. It is debatable if they can be flown safely without airline style (as in 6 monthly) recurrent training.
Which is ultimately safer is purely an economic discussion.
Flown well a piston twin is a safer bet. Historically piston twins have, too often, not been flown well. It is debatable if they can be flown safely without airline style (as in 6 monthly) recurrent training.
Which is ultimately safer is purely an economic discussion.
Spinnerhead is absolutly spot on.
But even when you fly a twin for a living engine failures must be practiced on a regular basis because do not ever think that you have 1000+ multi time in your log book and nothing will happen to you.
It will and it will happen when you least expect it.
I had an engine failure in a Queenair many years ago on top of cloud over Bass Sraight with 9 people on board after many years of trouble free flying.
The first thing came over me was PANIC! Then it took many valuable seconds with the stall warning screaming before i snapped out of it and started going through the emergency actions. I made it into King Island safely but i will never forget the lesson i learnt that day.
Practice, Practice, Practice.
PS. Where is Capt Wally?
But even when you fly a twin for a living engine failures must be practiced on a regular basis because do not ever think that you have 1000+ multi time in your log book and nothing will happen to you.
It will and it will happen when you least expect it.
I had an engine failure in a Queenair many years ago on top of cloud over Bass Sraight with 9 people on board after many years of trouble free flying.
The first thing came over me was PANIC! Then it took many valuable seconds with the stall warning screaming before i snapped out of it and started going through the emergency actions. I made it into King Island safely but i will never forget the lesson i learnt that day.
Practice, Practice, Practice.
PS. Where is Capt Wally?
100% of my SE engine failures ended up in a forced landing....100% of my ME engine failures ended in a 'normal' landing on a runway...more than 1 in both cases...
Would be interesting to see the stats for ME engine failures for pro- vs non-pro pilots. I think Chuckles has it nailed with regular recurrent vs non-regular recurrent training!
As I understand it a young pro-pilot in this part of the world had two engine failues on TO in the same ME aircraft within about a week - first one side - then the other. Handled both of them superbly! Hopefully one of the airlines has snapped HER up by now!
Dr
Last edited by ForkTailedDrKiller; 9th Aug 2008 at 01:39.
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Good to hear from you again CW!
You have got us worried for a while... but than again you fly a TWIN
Do not worry about the Doc, hes still looking for a couple of GSO 480's so he can turn his machine into a TWIN BONZA
You have got us worried for a while... but than again you fly a TWIN
Do not worry about the Doc, hes still looking for a couple of GSO 480's so he can turn his machine into a TWIN BONZA
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tnxs guys for the lovin' thoughts. Dr if I had have 'spun' in I'd make sure it was into a sweet target of which there would be zillion to choose from
back latter guys, keep those SE's turning:-)
CW
if I had have 'spun' in I'd make sure it was into a sweet target of which there would be zillion to choose fromback latter guys, keep those SE's turning:-)
CW
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OPTIONS
yes a twin gives you options after an engine failure that you dont have in single. 99% of the time you have the option of landing safely back at an airfield, very unlikely you would have to shut both taps and sink like a greased anvil
MACH082 Could you please tell me more about 208 engine failures in this country as the last one i heard about was down is Tasie, it was on floats and landed safely back on the water, Starter/Gen somehow stopped engine.
Thanks, As It has been many years since I last flew a PT6 powered single and im some what out of the loop
I wonder if the boys outback in there PC12s whish they had the option of an old piston engine twin
yes a twin gives you options after an engine failure that you dont have in single. 99% of the time you have the option of landing safely back at an airfield, very unlikely you would have to shut both taps and sink like a greased anvil
MACH082 Could you please tell me more about 208 engine failures in this country as the last one i heard about was down is Tasie, it was on floats and landed safely back on the water, Starter/Gen somehow stopped engine.
Thanks, As It has been many years since I last flew a PT6 powered single and im some what out of the loop
I wonder if the boys outback in there PC12s whish they had the option of an old piston engine twin
Thread Starter
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This is all good stuff, people, but I need to elaborate a bit here.
The ATSB says that 91% of all fatal accidents resulting from engine failure in a twin occur because of loss of control in asymmetric flight, not aircraft performance decay. Is this because twin drivers don't practice enough? How often would you shut one down in flight just to practice? Also, are there many non-IFR twin drivers out there? Would an IFR twin driver be checked asymmetrically during their annual renewal?
Keep it coming,
Walrus
The ATSB says that 91% of all fatal accidents resulting from engine failure in a twin occur because of loss of control in asymmetric flight, not aircraft performance decay. Is this because twin drivers don't practice enough? How often would you shut one down in flight just to practice? Also, are there many non-IFR twin drivers out there? Would an IFR twin driver be checked asymmetrically during their annual renewal?
Keep it coming,
Walrus
How often would you shut one down in flight just to practice?
NEVER!!!
Would an IFR twin driver be checked asymmetrically during their annual renewal?
Yes several times each renewal, but not right after take off, at least not in my aircraft, and my renewals are never at MTOW.
NEVER!!!
Would an IFR twin driver be checked asymmetrically during their annual renewal?
Yes several times each renewal, but not right after take off, at least not in my aircraft, and my renewals are never at MTOW.
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the work load is much higher in the twin the engine fails. You got to run the engine out intial actions, then ID and feather, then you have to keep flying which can take some effort as you try to keep ball 1/2 out and 5AoB to the live.
tie this in again with IMC and having to shoot an approach your scan rate would be going through the roof. all it would take was a little slip in concentration and the next thing you'd below MSA or the airspeed would be too slow
tie this in again with IMC and having to shoot an approach your scan rate would be going through the roof. all it would take was a little slip in concentration and the next thing you'd below MSA or the airspeed would be too slow
Silly Old Git
cessna capt...have little lie down mate
Pilots are not formula one drivers
Even I could handle it and my reactions are so slow that once on a dark night a check captain asked me to turn my overhead cockpit light on so he could check I hadnt died
Pilots are not formula one drivers
Even I could handle it and my reactions are so slow that once on a dark night a check captain asked me to turn my overhead cockpit light on so he could check I hadnt died
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Not after takeoff??
Instrument rating renewals ALWAYS included a simulated engine failure after takeoff. The stipulation was "not below 50 ft agl, and not below VMC plus ten knots with gear up"
But it was usually below max takeoff weight. Usually full fuel and two POB.
I did a bit of research with the Partenavia when we first got them. I found that they would climb a little on one, if you fly them straight, and at the right speed. But in a rate one turn they would lose about one foot of altitude for every degree of turn. (you do the sums)
So it is important that you fly them right and have an escape route that does not require immediate climb or turns. Then when it fails you climb straight ahead for as long as it takes to get a height that will tolerate a turn. A "minimum assymetric circuit height" You WILL lose some height in a turn in most piston twins.
And don't think that your whizzbang twin will perform so well that this reasoning does not apply.
There was a Kingair that went assymetric at Sydney and could not maintain height for a runway that was 20ft amsl.
You DO have a little climb performance, but it is fragile and you can destroy it easily.
The same applies to controlability.
Assymetrics sort out the men from the boys.
I remember reading american research that showed that you are less likely to be killed due to an engine failure in a twin than in a single. But you are more likely to be killed in a twin than a single.
But it was usually below max takeoff weight. Usually full fuel and two POB.
I did a bit of research with the Partenavia when we first got them. I found that they would climb a little on one, if you fly them straight, and at the right speed. But in a rate one turn they would lose about one foot of altitude for every degree of turn. (you do the sums)
So it is important that you fly them right and have an escape route that does not require immediate climb or turns. Then when it fails you climb straight ahead for as long as it takes to get a height that will tolerate a turn. A "minimum assymetric circuit height" You WILL lose some height in a turn in most piston twins.
And don't think that your whizzbang twin will perform so well that this reasoning does not apply.
There was a Kingair that went assymetric at Sydney and could not maintain height for a runway that was 20ft amsl.
You DO have a little climb performance, but it is fragile and you can destroy it easily.
The same applies to controlability.
Assymetrics sort out the men from the boys.
I remember reading american research that showed that you are less likely to be killed due to an engine failure in a twin than in a single. But you are more likely to be killed in a twin than a single.
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Originally Posted by desmotronic
How often would you shut one down in flight just to practice?
NEVER!!!
NEVER!!!
I'm of the opinion that, properly executed, these exercises are of tremendous benefit, not only to your confidence that you do have the ability to handle these situations correctly, but to your confidence in your aircraft. You know what she'll do.
Sprucegoose
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the work load is much higher in the twin the engine fails.
I had a mate who had an engine failure in a fully loaded C207 at about 500 feet in a turn. He had time to straighten up, find a spot, fly btween two trees, before coming to rest in a field of termite mounds. Total elapsed time about 20 seconds, how long would he have had in a twin?
Like Tinpis says it ain't rocket science, five degrees AoB and 1/2 ball are only guides, anywhere in the ball park is generally OK! Just remember in a light twin airspeed is everything, if you ain't got it, you better lower that nose...
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I’m sure the Wright brothers had this discussion as they were fitting the bike chain to two props.But here goes my 2c.
Given that
I have more twin time in my logbook then single
My flying is private type flying (fun & my own business trips)
I own a light twin.
There is no question if you are going to fly a twin you need to keep on top of your engine out drill's. I try to do at least one simulated engine failure ever couple of months.
I did my twin training back when schools still did fully feathered approach and landing’s . So i do have some experience in doing it for real. I have also been unable to restart an engine after a shutdown. It's good experience and not like you expect. I found my self a few times fixated on the feathered prop.
I have also done quite a few VMCA demonstrations well above 3000ft AGL and know if you enter into that situation close the ground you are going to die.
The key here is to have a good plan. Don’t forget the before takeoff discussion with yourself. Be prepared to close the throttles if you have to. If you go in right side up you have a chance if you go in upside down you will die. My brief goes like this.
If we have an engine fail during the T/O roll we will close the throttles and stop
If we have an engine fail after T/O and we are below blue line we will close the throttle and land ( or crash) ahead.
If we have an engine fail after T/O and we are able to maintain altitude fly
blue line. blue line. blue line (said 3 times in my head before takeoff)
Gear up flap up pumps on.
Identify. Verify. Feather (dont try and fix things this close to the ground get it feathered.)
If we are still maintaining altitude raise the dead (that is turn in the direction of the good engine) If we are not climbing well and there is no terrain continue straight until enough altitude can be gained. If you have to maneuver country to a traffic pattern or ATC instruction declare an emergency and do it. They will forgive you.
If in any doubt close the throttles and land ahead.
Don’t forget all the advantages of a twin. (Especially at night or in IMC) most twins have multiple vacuum pumps and multiple alternators. Because they are usually bigger inside they often also have duplicated instruments. If you fly over water (which i do quite a bit) you are much better of at 1000ft on one engine then swimming. If you are at night. you are much better of 100ft below lowest safe then hitting the side of an invisible mountain. Remember the fully stalled tree top landing only works for Robert Downey Jr in Air America and he was off his face at the time.
On the other hand if you are thinking of buying a twin remember COST there is two of everything. Your overhaul will cost you twice as much. Twins also have heaters which need overhauling.
A final thought. There have been many pilots of SINGLES that have sadly lost there life because they have forgotten to pick a field 30degress either size of the nose after an engine failure at T/O . Pilots that have tried to turn back and make the runway with not enough altitude. I think there is little difference between this and the procedures surrounding engine failures after T/O in twins and circumstances sounding VMCA. It’s all just about procedure and getting things (hopefully) down in your head. We hope for the best and plan for the worst. Let’s all hope we never have to put it to the test for real.
Matt.
Given that
I have more twin time in my logbook then single
My flying is private type flying (fun & my own business trips)
I own a light twin.
There is no question if you are going to fly a twin you need to keep on top of your engine out drill's. I try to do at least one simulated engine failure ever couple of months.
I did my twin training back when schools still did fully feathered approach and landing’s . So i do have some experience in doing it for real. I have also been unable to restart an engine after a shutdown. It's good experience and not like you expect. I found my self a few times fixated on the feathered prop.
I have also done quite a few VMCA demonstrations well above 3000ft AGL and know if you enter into that situation close the ground you are going to die.
The key here is to have a good plan. Don’t forget the before takeoff discussion with yourself. Be prepared to close the throttles if you have to. If you go in right side up you have a chance if you go in upside down you will die. My brief goes like this.
If we have an engine fail during the T/O roll we will close the throttles and stop
If we have an engine fail after T/O and we are below blue line we will close the throttle and land ( or crash) ahead.
If we have an engine fail after T/O and we are able to maintain altitude fly
blue line. blue line. blue line (said 3 times in my head before takeoff)
Gear up flap up pumps on.
Identify. Verify. Feather (dont try and fix things this close to the ground get it feathered.)
If we are still maintaining altitude raise the dead (that is turn in the direction of the good engine) If we are not climbing well and there is no terrain continue straight until enough altitude can be gained. If you have to maneuver country to a traffic pattern or ATC instruction declare an emergency and do it. They will forgive you.
If in any doubt close the throttles and land ahead.
Don’t forget all the advantages of a twin. (Especially at night or in IMC) most twins have multiple vacuum pumps and multiple alternators. Because they are usually bigger inside they often also have duplicated instruments. If you fly over water (which i do quite a bit) you are much better of at 1000ft on one engine then swimming. If you are at night. you are much better of 100ft below lowest safe then hitting the side of an invisible mountain. Remember the fully stalled tree top landing only works for Robert Downey Jr in Air America and he was off his face at the time.
On the other hand if you are thinking of buying a twin remember COST there is two of everything. Your overhaul will cost you twice as much. Twins also have heaters which need overhauling.
A final thought. There have been many pilots of SINGLES that have sadly lost there life because they have forgotten to pick a field 30degress either size of the nose after an engine failure at T/O . Pilots that have tried to turn back and make the runway with not enough altitude. I think there is little difference between this and the procedures surrounding engine failures after T/O in twins and circumstances sounding VMCA. It’s all just about procedure and getting things (hopefully) down in your head. We hope for the best and plan for the worst. Let’s all hope we never have to put it to the test for real.
Matt.
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There was a Kingair that went assymetric at Sydney and could not maintain height for a runway that was 20ft amsl.
You DO have a little climb performance, but it is fragile and you can destroy it easily.
The same applies to controlability.
Assymetrics sort out the men from the boys
You DO have a little climb performance, but it is fragile and you can destroy it easily.
The same applies to controlability.
Assymetrics sort out the men from the boys
Remember the fully stalled tree top landing only works for Robert Downey Jr in Air America and he was off his face at the time
Last edited by Brian Abraham; 11th Aug 2008 at 06:26.