ADF Required for IFR?
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ADF Required for IFR?
Excuse my ignorance, but is an ADF a requirement in a S/E aircraft to be approved IFR? Can you operate said aircraft IFR into an airport that only has a GPS & NDB approach?
If you want to fly an NDB approach, you will need an ADF.
If you want to fly to your airport with only NDB and RNAV approaches, you are more than welcome to do so, but unless your GPS is TSO 146, you'll need to plan an alternate, regardless of the weather.
If your aircraft does not have an ADF, it requires a VOR instead. You must have one or the other, or both.
If you want to fly to your airport with only NDB and RNAV approaches, you are more than welcome to do so, but unless your GPS is TSO 146, you'll need to plan an alternate, regardless of the weather.
If your aircraft does not have an ADF, it requires a VOR instead. You must have one or the other, or both.
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ill add further. you may fly to an aerodrome with only an NDB and RNAV approach and not provide an alternate only if you are PVT/AWK. if you want to fly CHTR/RPT you may if you either have 2 ADF reciever in the aircraft or your GPS is TSO 145(a) or 146(a) standard with valid FDE
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So, say you import your nice shiny Cirrus with dual 430's, no ADF and no room for one, must you always carry an alternate if you require a non-precision approach, unless there is a VOR also at the destination?
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correct unless the G430's are 145/146(a) approved
The original question was:
Note "S/E", therefore the operation must be CHTR/AWK 5700kg or less MTOW, or PVT.
I don't know which book of rules you guys are reading, but mine says:
Jepp AU-304 3.3
3.3.1 A flight which is planned to be conducted under the IFR on the last route segment to its destination must provide for a suitable alternate aerodrome, unless:
a. for Regular Public Transport and Charter operations: ........
b. for Aerial Work and Private operations: the destination is served by a radio navigation aid for which an instrument approach procedure has been prescribed and the aircraft is fitted with the radion navigation system capable of using the aid.
Therefore minimum equipment for S/E IFR is 1 x either ADF, VOR or TSO145/146a GPS.
Common sense should dictate that there is not a lot of value in having only a VOR in the aeroplane if the destination aerodrome has only an NDB and a GPSRNAV Appr!
Are there any aerodromes around that have an NDB and not at least one GPSRNAV Appr these days?
The example Cirrus above is fine with its two G430s provided at least one of them is TSO 145/146a. However, I suspect it would be possible to import one that has only TSO129 GPSs. It will cost you $3.5 - 4k each to upgrade them. Obviously all the newer ones will be TSO 145/146a.
Dr
but is an ADF a requirement in a S/E aircraft to be approved IFR?
I don't know which book of rules you guys are reading, but mine says:
Jepp AU-304 3.3
3.3.1 A flight which is planned to be conducted under the IFR on the last route segment to its destination must provide for a suitable alternate aerodrome, unless:
a. for Regular Public Transport and Charter operations: ........
b. for Aerial Work and Private operations: the destination is served by a radio navigation aid for which an instrument approach procedure has been prescribed and the aircraft is fitted with the radion navigation system capable of using the aid.
Therefore minimum equipment for S/E IFR is 1 x either ADF, VOR or TSO145/146a GPS.
Common sense should dictate that there is not a lot of value in having only a VOR in the aeroplane if the destination aerodrome has only an NDB and a GPSRNAV Appr!
Are there any aerodromes around that have an NDB and not at least one GPSRNAV Appr these days?
The example Cirrus above is fine with its two G430s provided at least one of them is TSO 145/146a. However, I suspect it would be possible to import one that has only TSO129 GPSs. It will cost you $3.5 - 4k each to upgrade them. Obviously all the newer ones will be TSO 145/146a.
Dr
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Yes Dr, it is under PVT.
So, to try a different tack, if you were starting with a completely blank panel, would you include the ADF for your PVT IFR flying? (TSO GPS to be fitted, that's a given). Nearest VOR to home airport is 100nm away.
So, to try a different tack, if you were starting with a completely blank panel, would you include the ADF for your PVT IFR flying? (TSO GPS to be fitted, that's a given). Nearest VOR to home airport is 100nm away.
if you were starting with a completely blank panel, would you include the ADF for your PVT IFR flying? (TSO GPS to be fitted, that's a given)
In the last 400+hrs of PVT IFR flying in the FTDK I have NEVER flown an NDB approach in anger. I do one every 90 days for currency and one of those will be for my IR renewal. Why would you when a GPSRNAV Appr is so much easier and more accurate to fly, and generally has lower minima.
I would install a second GPS, preferably TSO 145/146a. Some of the more basic ones are cheaper than a new ADF anyway. I know cause I have priced one for the Bo.
Warbo, I don't know where you plan to operate, but as you know safe flying is a matter of managing risk. One advantage of PVT ops is that you are rarely faced with the payload/endurance conflict that charter/airwork pilots manage every day. I rarely fly the FTDK in serious IMC without at least 1.5 hrs endurance reserve up my sleave, so having to fly 100nm to a VOR approach once every 5 yrs or so would not be a problem.
While a second TSO GPS would be nice, I would have no problem flying PVT IFR with a Garmin 430/540W type of GPS and a Garmin 296/396/496/592 portable as backup.
Dr
PS: According to my log book, the last NDB appr I flew in anger was at Kidston on 5 July 1989 in C310 VH-XGN, in order to get into Carpentaria Downs. I broke out just above the minima.
Last edited by ForkTailedDrKiller; 17th Jul 2008 at 13:01.
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They usually are but you'd still need need an alternate would you not? Since most places in Aus have at best only NDB or GPS or NDB and GPS approaches, we still seem to be some distance away from dirtching our ADF's as they have in the US. So the answer to Warbo's question is 'yes' in theory but for most practical purposes in Aus, we still need an ADF.
AIR GEN 1.5-16
3. Unless using a TSO-C145a or C146a reciever and a valid prediction of approach FDE availability, at both destination and alternate if required provision for an alternate aerodrome may not be based on RNAV (GNSS) approach capability.
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As fond as I am of RNAV GNSS, and as much as I don't like flying NDB APCH's, NDB approaches can be helpful....
Say you're coming into Airport X and the forecast cloudbase (& AWIS if available to you in the cockpit) suggests you could make a letdown to lowest safe (which is also usually the starting altitude of any NDB APCH and lowerthan the starting altitude of most RNAV GNSS APCH's) to then make a visual APCH. At 2000' still can't see a sausage - just get over the aid in the approved manner, and do the NDB APCH. 2 to 3 minutes out and in: saves going all the way out to the 15NM points on the RNAV GNSS APCH. Mind you, as well as using the ADF, I set "go to" on the GPS to the NDB and set OBS to the courses as required for holding/outbound/inbound - of course, I use the NDB as primary reference
, but the GPS is far more accurate!!
Still can't see why we are not legally allowed to use appropriately TSO'ed GPS units to fly "overlay" NDB APCH's as in the good ol' US of A.......
Say you're coming into Airport X and the forecast cloudbase (& AWIS if available to you in the cockpit) suggests you could make a letdown to lowest safe (which is also usually the starting altitude of any NDB APCH and lowerthan the starting altitude of most RNAV GNSS APCH's) to then make a visual APCH. At 2000' still can't see a sausage - just get over the aid in the approved manner, and do the NDB APCH. 2 to 3 minutes out and in: saves going all the way out to the 15NM points on the RNAV GNSS APCH. Mind you, as well as using the ADF, I set "go to" on the GPS to the NDB and set OBS to the courses as required for holding/outbound/inbound - of course, I use the NDB as primary reference
, but the GPS is far more accurate!!Still can't see why we are not legally allowed to use appropriately TSO'ed GPS units to fly "overlay" NDB APCH's as in the good ol' US of A.......
