Lear 23/Beech 18 aerobatics...only in America?
Grandpa Aerotart
Thread Starter
Lear 23/Beech 18 aerobatics...only in America?
Why does the USA seem to be the only country that breads these airshow acts?
I saw a LR35 aileron rolled at the first Schofields airshow in the late 70s...and a fella looped/rolled a MD500E there too...in both cases CAA went spastic.
Bobby Younkin.
YouTube - 2002 AirPower Over Hampton Roads - Bobby Younkin
His son Matt Younkin.
YouTube - Matt Younkin aerobatics
Note Bobby was later killed at an airshow (not doing these acts) and Matt took over the act, by the look of it, at least in the Beech 18.
I saw a LR35 aileron rolled at the first Schofields airshow in the late 70s...and a fella looped/rolled a MD500E there too...in both cases CAA went spastic.
Bobby Younkin.
YouTube - 2002 AirPower Over Hampton Roads - Bobby Younkin
His son Matt Younkin.
YouTube - Matt Younkin aerobatics
Note Bobby was later killed at an airshow (not doing these acts) and Matt took over the act, by the look of it, at least in the Beech 18.
Moderator
Can't speak to the specific examples .. normally it all comes down to being in the Experimental Category ... basically do what you like. A little more controlled in Oz, though.
Used to be more relaxed in the olden days, though .. can recall Jack XX showing me a letter from Jim Schofield (then SA/NT RD, as I recall) after Jack did an airshow at which Jim was an observer ... the letter included a bit along the lines of " .. and it was good to see your passes a little higher. The folk in the second row got a view this time.
Used to be more relaxed in the olden days, though .. can recall Jack XX showing me a letter from Jim Schofield (then SA/NT RD, as I recall) after Jack did an airshow at which Jim was an observer ... the letter included a bit along the lines of " .. and it was good to see your passes a little higher. The folk in the second row got a view this time.
I saw the Westpac Rescue BK117 do a loop at the Wanaka Airshow several years ago (over a decade ago actually.) Looked great, quite unexpected, not sure what the CAA thought about it though.
Why does the USA seem to be the only country that breeds (note spelling correction CC) these airshow acts?
I went to Oshkosh in 1999. The whole time I was there I expected a crash to occur. It did - collision on the runway of a couple of warbirds during a formation TO.
At that show, Bob Hoover's routine in the Shrike was "dull"!
Several of the airshow preformers are not longer with us - ie Jimmy Franklin, and a number of others were smart enough to give it up before they went the same way - ie GeeBee
http://www.fototime.com/D3127FF31FDB457/conv.wmv
Dr
Last edited by ForkTailedDrKiller; 15th Jul 2008 at 11:58.
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I admit to knowing zilch about the Beech 18 and its respective limitations so I won't comment but a little research into the development of the Lear jets should remove some of your anguish. Much of the design including the wing was carried over from the Swiss designed but never produced P-16 fighter (the wing was blamed for the early models low speed handling 'traits'). I doubt the figures flown in the video would exceed the airframe limits. You could hardly call it aggressive flying.
DD
DD
Grandpa Aerotart
Thread Starter
No anguish in my post nor was that the reason for starting the thread.
I was initially going to start it along the lines of "Wow look at this...cool huh?" but just knew that would result in 4 pages of tut tutting nanny statements.
Technically both displays are flawless exhibits of controlled flying. In neither display did the hair on the back of my neck stand up in anticipation of impending doom.
From a lay viewers perspective though they fall into the 'dull' classification that FTDK alludes to in his perspective of the difference between Hoover's displays and the more gladitorial routines that many display pilots, in the US particularly, seem to fall. By that I mean they appeal to an educated audience rather than the man off the street. That gladitorial aspect seems particularly prevalent in the current Red Bull air races fad...probably the reason why I thought the first one I saw (Budapest) was fantastic but immediately lost interest and never went out of my way to watch another...a fatality in that event is a given, just a matter of when.
Interestingly Bobby Younkin (the father) was killed doing this display.
YouTube - 2004 Sussex Airshow - The X-Team "Masters of Disaster"
Note the jet powered Boeing Stearman and the absolute mayhem of the display...and the death metal music.
I was initially going to start it along the lines of "Wow look at this...cool huh?" but just knew that would result in 4 pages of tut tutting nanny statements.
Technically both displays are flawless exhibits of controlled flying. In neither display did the hair on the back of my neck stand up in anticipation of impending doom.
From a lay viewers perspective though they fall into the 'dull' classification that FTDK alludes to in his perspective of the difference between Hoover's displays and the more gladitorial routines that many display pilots, in the US particularly, seem to fall. By that I mean they appeal to an educated audience rather than the man off the street. That gladitorial aspect seems particularly prevalent in the current Red Bull air races fad...probably the reason why I thought the first one I saw (Budapest) was fantastic but immediately lost interest and never went out of my way to watch another...a fatality in that event is a given, just a matter of when.
Interestingly Bobby Younkin (the father) was killed doing this display.
YouTube - 2004 Sussex Airshow - The X-Team "Masters of Disaster"
Note the jet powered Boeing Stearman and the absolute mayhem of the display...and the death metal music.
Last edited by Chimbu chuckles; 15th Jul 2008 at 16:24.
From a lay viewers perspective though they fall into the 'dull' classification that FTDK alludes to in his perspective of the difference between Hoover's displays and the more gladitorial routines that many display pilots, in the US particularly, seem to fall. By that I mean they appeal to an educated audience rather than the man off the street. That gladitorial aspect seems particularly prevalent in the current Red Bull air races fad...probably the reason why I thought the first one I saw (Budapest) was fantastic but immediately lost interest and never went out of my way to watch another...a fatality in that event is a given, just a matter of when.
Edit: I don't mean to disparage Hoover's routines, they are fantastic, but they don't have the layman impact of something that is loud, fast and low.
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The Masters of Disaster really lived up to their name. Hence the reason none of them are alive anymore. Darwin took care of them.
I was initially going to start it along the lines of "Wow look at this...cool huh?" but just knew that would result in 4 pages of tut tutting nanny statements.
You should have started it like that anyway, always good for a laugh at the theories of aerodynamics that abound! Most of the people that tut tut the loudest have heard the term 'performance envelope' and use it at any opportunity but when challenged have no real concept of what it means let alone use the pertinent numbers to draw one for any of the aeroplanes they fly!
Wouldn't be so quick to write off the RBAR just yet CC, I'd say the jury is still out on that one although I would agree that the death of one of them is foregone conclusion. They are flying well beyond the limits of their aeroplanes. Something will give.
Dorothy.
I was initially going to start it along the lines of "Wow look at this...cool huh?" but just knew that would result in 4 pages of tut tutting nanny statements.
You should have started it like that anyway, always good for a laugh at the theories of aerodynamics that abound! Most of the people that tut tut the loudest have heard the term 'performance envelope' and use it at any opportunity but when challenged have no real concept of what it means let alone use the pertinent numbers to draw one for any of the aeroplanes they fly!
Wouldn't be so quick to write off the RBAR just yet CC, I'd say the jury is still out on that one although I would agree that the death of one of them is foregone conclusion. They are flying well beyond the limits of their aeroplanes. Something will give.
Dorothy.
Silly Old Git
They are flying well beyond the limits of their aeroplanes. Something will give.
The aeroplanes wont fly into the ground unless yer make em
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Saw the Beech 18 this year at Sun n Fun and I must say it was flown very well, energy management was well calculated and the routine was smooth. Saying all that though I have to say it somehow seemed wrong to be flying such a classic bird in such a way. Interesting to see it take place but cant help but wonder.... why? suppose I could answer my own question with... because they can! 
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Should have made myself clearer....they aren't really getting close to the wing/tail/fuse failure limits because composite structures failure rates are so difficult to predict they are generally well and truly over built. Most of the composite unlimited performers such as the MX2/S, Edge and Extra don't reach their ultimate load limits till it gets up around the 25-30g mark.
There are other points of stress on an airframe though, ones where the structure is manufactured using more conventional materials.........if you're still in doubt look towards the pointy end.
As a side note it is interesting that the television footage showing the 'G' being experienced at any given moment is almost always being shown when pitch is being introduced in the horizontal plane ie turning figures, rather than than the vertical plane. Also it never seems to exceed 10......strange when you think about it, maybe I'm just cynical.
DD
There are other points of stress on an airframe though, ones where the structure is manufactured using more conventional materials.........if you're still in doubt look towards the pointy end.
As a side note it is interesting that the television footage showing the 'G' being experienced at any given moment is almost always being shown when pitch is being introduced in the horizontal plane ie turning figures, rather than than the vertical plane. Also it never seems to exceed 10......strange when you think about it, maybe I'm just cynical.
DD
