How goes the REX EBA "negotiations" ?
I'm sorry you were offended wetheryet, I was a little blunt. But for the life of me I'm not sure what else REX pilots can do at this stage. The violations of the past have led to a Wages and Conditions package, that in this day and age, doesn't even come close to stacking up to other professions. In fact it falls short of most trades!
I've seen first hand what these characters (Management) are capable of. They would pay their pilots Macdonald's wages (no offence meant to those hard working people) if they could get away with it, and then go home at night without so much as a second thought as to what the ramifications of that would be. They would be the first ones to cry foul to the IRC if pilots chose to work outside the EBA. Yet they would be quite happy for such an occurance if it suited them.
You state.. "We must be more clever than to say it out loud, but rather create a culture where we as a group recognise we would be getting substantial incentives for these hours in most airlines, and to sensibly attend to the issue in a variety of ways."
Mate, I'm more than happy to embrace any viable suggestions as to how to proceed, but you probably need to be a little more specific. Might I suggest that you contact the boys on the REXPC with these specifics. As the negotiations bog down over the coming weeks, I'm sure they would appreciate any suggestions you may have.
I've seen first hand what these characters (Management) are capable of. They would pay their pilots Macdonald's wages (no offence meant to those hard working people) if they could get away with it, and then go home at night without so much as a second thought as to what the ramifications of that would be. They would be the first ones to cry foul to the IRC if pilots chose to work outside the EBA. Yet they would be quite happy for such an occurance if it suited them.
You state.. "We must be more clever than to say it out loud, but rather create a culture where we as a group recognise we would be getting substantial incentives for these hours in most airlines, and to sensibly attend to the issue in a variety of ways."
Mate, I'm more than happy to embrace any viable suggestions as to how to proceed, but you probably need to be a little more specific. Might I suggest that you contact the boys on the REXPC with these specifics. As the negotiations bog down over the coming weeks, I'm sure they would appreciate any suggestions you may have.
Gone very quiet old mate.
Welcome to the wonderful world of airline "negotiation"! Stall them, cancel meetings at short notice, give them no information, treat them with contempt.
Designed for one thing of course. Hopefully they (the REXPC) will get sick of it all and just go away.
Welcome to the wonderful world of airline "negotiation"! Stall them, cancel meetings at short notice, give them no information, treat them with contempt.
Designed for one thing of course. Hopefully they (the REXPC) will get sick of it all and just go away.
Last edited by KRUSTY 34; 21st Aug 2008 at 21:30.
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so pretty much same same?
ie "we cannot understand why you will not accept this very generous offer which we provide. we are insulted, and will not talk to you until you apologise and accept it ?"
good to see the AFAP are pushing hard for you!!!!
ie "we cannot understand why you will not accept this very generous offer which we provide. we are insulted, and will not talk to you until you apologise and accept it ?"
good to see the AFAP are pushing hard for you!!!!
Apparently there was an EBA negotiation meeting yesterday. Apparently, because I got it about 4th hand!
Muff, the EBA expired at the end of June. It's not unusual, in fact it seems far too common for the old EBA to expire (and to be expired for some time) prior to the new one being certified. After seeing years of this sort of thing, it is primarily due to company indifference and a lack of will where industrial relations are concerned.
And that's being charitable!
Muff, the EBA expired at the end of June. It's not unusual, in fact it seems far too common for the old EBA to expire (and to be expired for some time) prior to the new one being certified. After seeing years of this sort of thing, it is primarily due to company indifference and a lack of will where industrial relations are concerned.
And that's being charitable!
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Krusty,
Where the F*&K is the AFAP.....surely they should be putting some very firm pressure on REX to at least put out a document?
Will there be back pay to the date of the old EBA, I doubt it!!
How is the feeling amoungst the pilot group being treated with utter distain by LKH, JD and their cronies.
What will it take to get these criminals to the table???
All the best...sounds like the mass exodus from REX will soon start again!!
Where the F*&K is the AFAP.....surely they should be putting some very firm pressure on REX to at least put out a document?
Will there be back pay to the date of the old EBA, I doubt it!!
How is the feeling amoungst the pilot group being treated with utter distain by LKH, JD and their cronies.
What will it take to get these criminals to the table???
All the best...sounds like the mass exodus from REX will soon start again!!
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Unfortunately this is the way with EBA negotiations now.
When your EBA expires its no payrises til the new one is signed.
Anything you previously 'traded off' to give productivity to the company still applies and there are no carrots for you and no penalties to the company.
Good faith bargaining is what the employee expects, seeing ways to screw you over is what the company looks for.
When your EBA expires its no payrises til the new one is signed.
Anything you previously 'traded off' to give productivity to the company still applies and there are no carrots for you and no penalties to the company.
Good faith bargaining is what the employee expects, seeing ways to screw you over is what the company looks for.
Just wondering in comparison if anyone has accurate figures on what other aus turboprop operators are paying now (and conditions if they stand out), on similar aircraft. I've heard rumors that some drivers have increased their earnings significantly in the last 12 months.
For instance Braz/Metro/Dash-100 and ATR-42 captains around $80-90k, some with weekends off and no overnights, major city bases.
For instance Braz/Metro/Dash-100 and ATR-42 captains around $80-90k, some with weekends off and no overnights, major city bases.
EAA pay is approx 20% more and with a retention bonus for Captains. I have heard however the "bonus", while still not enough is certainly a move in the right direction. It does not however have the guarentees that a proper intergration into the EBA would provide.
This lack of good faith and the "flexibility" by management to pull it when, and if they see fit, has diluted much of the effect that such a move could have been expected to have!
Mind you, it's still a far superior deal to what REX is offering.
This lack of good faith and the "flexibility" by management to pull it when, and if they see fit, has diluted much of the effect that such a move could have been expected to have!
Mind you, it's still a far superior deal to what REX is offering.
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Geeez krusty that money is woeful! How can an F/O live on that money in a major capital city? I guess there will always be pilots who will continue to take that spare change hence they (REX) are still going. Yes I realise that they (REX) have the upper hand but would a mass revolt have an impact on the tight a**e boffins?
To those that have to be in REX do what ya gotta do & get the hell out of the place when possible!
CW
To those that have to be in REX do what ya gotta do & get the hell out of the place when possible!
CW
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Some comparisons.....(pretty close I think)
Network (WA) FO's around the 55k mark and capt 80+....
Skippers around the same...
RFDS i think around the 70k
Surveillance Aus...double REX (at least)
Any other worthy Turb Prop job is Aus around the 80k mark..
Why would anyone work for these pricks....it's obvious the have little respect for their pilots.
Also, shouldn't the first cadets be on line around about now.....??
The mail is most do not even have a ppl yet!!! What a joke!!
Network (WA) FO's around the 55k mark and capt 80+....
Skippers around the same...
RFDS i think around the 70k
Surveillance Aus...double REX (at least)
Any other worthy Turb Prop job is Aus around the 80k mark..
Why would anyone work for these pricks....it's obvious the have little respect for their pilots.
Also, shouldn't the first cadets be on line around about now.....??
The mail is most do not even have a ppl yet!!! What a joke!!
In good time the majority will Wal. The slowdown in recruitment by the majors, heartily lauded by the new CEO, will only give REX a measure of temporary relief.
2007 saw a pilot attrition rate of 60%. 2008 will see it reduced to about 40%! All but the ostrieges at Baxter Rd know that this is at best a temporay relief. Once the major airlines start recruiting in earnest (probably the first half of next year), then round 2 will make the first year's attrition seem mild by comparison.
REX has chosen to ignore the need for pilot retention. Hense the allocation of zero resources to their industrial obligations. Instead they have offered what to the uninitiated would appear to be a golden opportunity. A direct entry into a regional airline straight out of basic training. By doing this, the appallingly low salary will probably be lower on the list of priorities for this "New Age", and very young, workforce.
As far as the EBA is concerned, the grapevine is currently buzzing, and the feeling is not positive. So far no word from the REXPC or the FEDS, but watch this space, should only be a matter of days now. Despite the company's reliance on the aforementioned solution to the loss of crew, I believe it is truely a house being built on sand.
Stay tuned.
2007 saw a pilot attrition rate of 60%. 2008 will see it reduced to about 40%! All but the ostrieges at Baxter Rd know that this is at best a temporay relief. Once the major airlines start recruiting in earnest (probably the first half of next year), then round 2 will make the first year's attrition seem mild by comparison.
REX has chosen to ignore the need for pilot retention. Hense the allocation of zero resources to their industrial obligations. Instead they have offered what to the uninitiated would appear to be a golden opportunity. A direct entry into a regional airline straight out of basic training. By doing this, the appallingly low salary will probably be lower on the list of priorities for this "New Age", and very young, workforce.
As far as the EBA is concerned, the grapevine is currently buzzing, and the feeling is not positive. So far no word from the REXPC or the FEDS, but watch this space, should only be a matter of days now. Despite the company's reliance on the aforementioned solution to the loss of crew, I believe it is truely a house being built on sand.
Stay tuned.
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just playing DEVILS ADVOCATE here, krusty old chap, so...
Management will be looking at the figures you've quoted (60% 2007 vs 40% 2008), and think that they have "stopped the flow". Even thought they have done NOTHING, and fortune has "favoured the brave", and let's face it - to believe that there is NO PILOT SHORTAGE is a very brave stand to make.
The really unfortunate thing here, is that when there is a statistical glitch, such as there is at the moment, these egotists believe that they were right all along!
what is probably the biggest shame of all, is that management bonusses are paid on a yearly basis with refernce to the preceding year, hence decisions made NOW, which prove to be disastrous ten years from now have NO repercussions for the individuals involved.Unlike management, who move on in bad times, PILOTS are bound by the rules of seniority... which is put in place to protect us, but when times go bad can work against us. Whereas a "manager" can move from job to job, industry to industry, with pay rise after pay rise and no "career path" as such, and retire after 40 years in the work force without ever having the anxiety that pilots have to go thru.
Ten years from now, are we going to look back and say " gee, that cadet scheme was a brilliant bit of forethought!" ? or "gee, withholding money from the workers really saved the company" ? or are we going to be looking back in TWO years and say " gee... maybe we SHOULD have tried to retain some ecxperinced pilots, and then maybe we would STILL have a business!" ? or "OK... we have 200 pilots on our books... who can we upgrade? who has the legal minimums" ???
Again.... the bonus will be paid THIS year, buit the mistakes will be realised 5-10 years from now, ad GUARANTEED... these chaps will NOT have to pay back their bonus.
I realise that this is probably a bit off topic, but I think that pilots/engineers/cabin crew etc SHOULD chase the dollar - just as management do, and if they are NOT being paid what they believe they are worth, then walk away, or stand up and tell these clowns what the situation is.
Aviation must be a very unique business, in that pilots who become management will negotiate against their brethren to screw them over, but still have the chance at a later date to return to the rank and file to suffer under the conditions that were perpetuated under their own regime!!! And, if they don't like the conditions... WILL move on faster than the line pilot that they now criticise.
Why unions continue to negotiate either with people who have no idea of what our job really entails, interspersed with a smattering of empire builders who have been on the recieving end and now want to screw the system that put them there, is beyond me. Agreed... we have to "negotiate" with someone... but surely, when pilots send their "top echelon", so could the company?
Rant over
Management will be looking at the figures you've quoted (60% 2007 vs 40% 2008), and think that they have "stopped the flow". Even thought they have done NOTHING, and fortune has "favoured the brave", and let's face it - to believe that there is NO PILOT SHORTAGE is a very brave stand to make.
The really unfortunate thing here, is that when there is a statistical glitch, such as there is at the moment, these egotists believe that they were right all along!
what is probably the biggest shame of all, is that management bonusses are paid on a yearly basis with refernce to the preceding year, hence decisions made NOW, which prove to be disastrous ten years from now have NO repercussions for the individuals involved.Unlike management, who move on in bad times, PILOTS are bound by the rules of seniority... which is put in place to protect us, but when times go bad can work against us. Whereas a "manager" can move from job to job, industry to industry, with pay rise after pay rise and no "career path" as such, and retire after 40 years in the work force without ever having the anxiety that pilots have to go thru.
Ten years from now, are we going to look back and say " gee, that cadet scheme was a brilliant bit of forethought!" ? or "gee, withholding money from the workers really saved the company" ? or are we going to be looking back in TWO years and say " gee... maybe we SHOULD have tried to retain some ecxperinced pilots, and then maybe we would STILL have a business!" ? or "OK... we have 200 pilots on our books... who can we upgrade? who has the legal minimums" ???
Again.... the bonus will be paid THIS year, buit the mistakes will be realised 5-10 years from now, ad GUARANTEED... these chaps will NOT have to pay back their bonus.
I realise that this is probably a bit off topic, but I think that pilots/engineers/cabin crew etc SHOULD chase the dollar - just as management do, and if they are NOT being paid what they believe they are worth, then walk away, or stand up and tell these clowns what the situation is.
Aviation must be a very unique business, in that pilots who become management will negotiate against their brethren to screw them over, but still have the chance at a later date to return to the rank and file to suffer under the conditions that were perpetuated under their own regime!!! And, if they don't like the conditions... WILL move on faster than the line pilot that they now criticise.
Why unions continue to negotiate either with people who have no idea of what our job really entails, interspersed with a smattering of empire builders who have been on the recieving end and now want to screw the system that put them there, is beyond me. Agreed... we have to "negotiate" with someone... but surely, when pilots send their "top echelon", so could the company?
Rant over
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Have heard a wisper that a number of o/s pilots will be starting with rex shortly on certain type of visa to fill the shortage........
dosen't bode well for a positive neg on the EBA..
dosen't bode well for a positive neg on the EBA..