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ATPL Flight Planning Tricks, Short Cuts etc

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ATPL Flight Planning Tricks, Short Cuts etc

Old 13th Jan 2018, 22:05
  #281 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
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Originally Posted by Checkboard View Post
Given that the Westwind which ditched near Lord Howe Island in 2009 did so, in part, due to the crew not completing any competent pre flight planning nor en-route PNR planning - Flight Planning from charts and performance tables is still relevant.

Not for an airliner, generally, as you'll have a lot of computer support for that. But for GA turbines? Yep.

... and calculating PNRs in flight is still required for airliners, as the on-board FMS/FMGS can't do that (not without as much fiddling as a paper calculation would require.)
Surprised you didn't learn PNR stuff at commercial level.
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Old 13th Jan 2018, 23:09
  #282 (permalink)  
 
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?? You learn (or did learn) basic en-route PNR at CPL. You learn Off-track PNR for ATPL exams. Hence my post.

I am confused about your reply, frankly. If I didn't make myself clear - this ATPL exam is supposed to produce a competent pilot, one who can successfully plan by themselves en-route, to a sucessful outcome.

It appears that the exam is not guiding people to that standard. That means that the exam is faulty. I suspect that is because the people who know what they are doing are not setting the exam, but trying to teach students to meet an exam set by people who don't quite know what they are doing.

Given the new Westwind report (which I was interested in as I used to fly the type), I wondered if I could still run up a graphical flight progress chart, for PNR and CP calculations:


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Old 14th Jan 2018, 06:18
  #283 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
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Originally Posted by Checkboard View Post
?? You learn (or did learn) basic en-route PNR at CPL. You learn Off-track PNR for ATPL exams. Hence my post.

I am confused about your reply, frankly. If I didn't make myself clear - this ATPL exam is supposed to produce a competent pilot, one who can successfully plan by themselves en-route, to a sucessful outcome.

It appears that the exam is not guiding people to that standard. That means that the exam is faulty. I suspect that is because the people who know what they are doing are not setting the exam, but trying to teach students to meet an exam set by people who don't quite know what they are doing.

Given the new Westwind report (which I was interested in as I used to fly the type), I wondered if I could still run up a graphical flight progress chart, for PNR and CP calculations:


Actually Checkerboard, I had forgotten that part of the NAV exam when I originally posted and I take your point. However, it is probably the only part of the NAV exam that has any use, the rest seemed rather pointless at the time.

In relation to the Westward ditching, given the paucity of information that he had to work with (from memory a phone briefing re weather and no flight plan) it amazes me it got as far as it did. This is not to open up that discussion here but for a lot of that stuff (PNR, x/wind calls, DME arcs distance between radials etc.) I made up a cheat sheet that I laminated and put it into the Jepp binder I carried. With my memory there was no way I was going to memorise it all.
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Old 29th Jan 2018, 00:43
  #284 (permalink)  
 
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Realize this is an ambiguous question but any thoughts would be appreciated. Wondering if anyone can give me a guide of study time. Say for example if I put in 4 hours a day for 4 weeks that should be adequate etc.
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Old 31st Jan 2018, 22:09
  #285 (permalink)  
 
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If you're a legend Braniac, 4 weeks may indeed be enough. But not for me.

Keep in mind that the fulltime Flight Planning course at Maroochydore is about 2 weeks long, with lots of homework each night, and many practise exams, using up most weekends. The instructor then recommends that you self-study for at least another two weeks, which includes a practise exam each day (which easily takes three hours each attempt).

It's very intensive, with speed and accuracy requiring priority
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Old 1st Feb 2018, 18:18
  #286 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
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Originally Posted by Runaway Gun View Post
If you're a legend Braniac, 4 weeks may indeed be enough. But not for me.

Keep in mind that the fulltime Flight Planning course at Maroochydore is about 2 weeks long, with lots of homework each night, and many practise exams, using up most weekends. The instructor then recommends that you self-study for at least another two weeks, which includes a practise exam each day (which easily takes three hours each attempt).

It's very intensive, with speed and accuracy requiring priority
The only issue with the practise exams is the fact there’s only a certain amount of questions. From memory, you’d start seeing the same questions on #5. It might help you gauge your speed/accuracy to a certain extent.
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Old 1st Feb 2018, 20:09
  #287 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
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I was in the first class of Navy Signalman that didn't have to learn morse code or aircraft recognition. Many of our instructors claimed it was the beginning of the end and the loss of skills would be catastrophic. Well it wasn't. Within 6 months everyone was saying how great it was that morse code had been dropped.

The ATPL flight planning exam is way over the top and not relevant with regards to flight planning technology available today.

Much like morse code.
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Old 2nd Feb 2018, 01:41
  #288 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Australia
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Originally Posted by pilotchute View Post
The ATPL flight planning exam is way over the top and not relevant with regards to flight planning technology available today.
It's a pain, and almost all real flight plans come out of one computer or another, but wait until you need to justify what the computer says.

At the end of the day, most jets still have performance data tables for climb, cruise, descent, 1inop, driftdown, gear down, etc. When you have the check or confirm when "Computer says noooo", all that FPL comes back to you - and you needed it.

Would be much better is CASA was clear about exam tolerances and published a set of suitable SOPs - then we'd have something to follow - other than hearsay and tradition.
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Old 14th Apr 2018, 08:07
  #289 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: SA
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Isa variation effect on tas

Hi have been reading both AFT and Rob Avery and now am pretty confused.

Rob Avery seems to mention all ISA deviations need to be rounded to multiples of 3 for both fuel flow AND TAS... however in the casa atpl booklet and from what I've learnt form AFT it only mentions to do this for the fuel flows.. what does everyone else do for the Tas?
Thanks in advance
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Old 16th Apr 2018, 09:02
  #290 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
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Originally Posted by Starjkd View Post
Hi have been reading both AFT and Rob Avery and now am pretty confused.

Rob Avery seems to mention all ISA deviations need to be rounded to multiples of 3 for both fuel flow AND TAS... however in the casa atpl booklet and from what I've learnt form AFT it only mentions to do this for the fuel flows.. what does everyone else do for the Tas?
Thanks in advance
AFT use the speed of sound formula instead. The ISA deviation is accounted for in the OAT in the formula.

TAS= √(273-OAT°C)*39*M-1

E.g FL350, 0.82M, ISA+4

[√(273-50)]*(39*0.82)-1=477KTAS

Rob's method uses the published TAS in the POH accounted for ISA deviation instead of using the formula.
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Old 16th Jun 2019, 01:55
  #291 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
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Yaw damp question

Hi all, long time viewer first time posting. For a yaw dampner inop flight do we consider the descent lets say we are at FL 310 and descend due yaw damp inop FL 280 do we consider this descent? it seems in some cases its required and some not. Thanks!
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Old 19th Jun 2019, 06:15
  #292 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
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Originally Posted by B777lover View Post
Hi all, long time viewer first time posting. For a yaw dampner inop flight do we consider the descent lets say we are at FL 310 and descend due yaw damp inop FL 280 do we consider this descent? it seems in some cases its required and some not. Thanks!
En-route descents are NOT required for any abnormal situation. This includes: DP, 1-INOP and Yaw Damper INOP. However, en-route descent planning is required for an 'air conditioning INOP' situation to either FL250 (east) or FL240 (west).
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Old 29th Jun 2019, 07:02
  #293 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
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Passed the exam recently. Here are some of my observations/tips:
  • There were 17 questions in total, around 10 of them required type-in answers. All of the 5-markers were type-in.
  • If I remember correctly, there were two 1-markers, three 2-markers, five 3-markers, four 4-markers and three 5-markers.
  • I found that the most effective way to finish on time was to start with the 5-markers first, then work backwards to the 1-markers.
  • There are some questions which don't require the use of the ERC. For example, there was a 5-marker which involved a forward planning from ALPHA to BRAVO via CHARLIE, where they gave you the tracks, distances, RSWT data and magnetic variations. This may be good news for those who aren't really a fan of mapwork. Personally, this saved me some precious seconds because I did not have to find the route on the map.
  • There were two or three questions where I was able to save a lot of time by only completing a partial flight plan. These are usually questions which give you a 'planned weight' at a certain waypoint.
  • There were a fair number of mid-flight PNR questions. Know your fuel policy well and remember to apply the correct fixed reserve (2250kg inflight) if it is a PNR/NO. Do not subtract taxi/shutdown fuel from the safe endurance for inflight PNR questions.
  • RTFQ: For those questions which ask for fuel required, read the question very carefully to see if they are asking for the required minimum FUEL ONBOARD or FLIGHT FUEL on startup.
  • With the RSWT winds, don't bother figuring out what the exact magnetic variation is for the sector. You'll just be eating into your precious exam time. Just round it to the nearest 5 degrees. For example, on a AD-PH flight, the initial climb will have you flying through a magnetic variation of 8E. In this case, just round it up to 10E. On the initial cruise, you'll encounter magnetic variations of 7E, 6E, 5E, 4E and 3E. Round to 5E. On the final cruise segments, you'll get variations of 2E, 1E, 0E, 1W and 2W. Round to 0E (i.e. just copy down the RSWT from the screen). However, if you are given those non-ERC ALPHA-BRAVO questions as mentioned above, just use the exact magnetic variation they give you in the question and apply it to the RSWT. I used this for my exam and it proved to be of sufficient accuracy.
  • Just a refresher: If you end up cruising at FL210 (right inbetween the two RSWT levels), use winds from FL235, not FL185. No interpolation required.
Good luck to everyone who is about to take this exam. Enjoy the beers afterwards. They certainly will taste good!

Last edited by Time Map Ground; 29th Jun 2019 at 08:01.
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Old 31st Jul 2019, 07:47
  #294 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
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Originally Posted by Time Map Ground View Post
Passed the exam recently. Here are some of my observations/tips:
  • There were 17 questions in total, around 10 of them required type-in answers. All of the 5-markers were type-in.
  • If I remember correctly, there were two 1-markers, three 2-markers, five 3-markers, four 4-markers and three 5-markers.
  • I found that the most effective way to finish on time was to start with the 5-markers first, then work backwards to the 1-markers.
  • There are some questions which don't require the use of the ERC. For example, there was a 5-marker which involved a forward planning from ALPHA to BRAVO via CHARLIE, where they gave you the tracks, distances, RSWT data and magnetic variations. This may be good news for those who aren't really a fan of mapwork. Personally, this saved me some precious seconds because I did not have to find the route on the map.
  • There were two or three questions where I was able to save a lot of time by only completing a partial flight plan. These are usually questions which give you a 'planned weight' at a certain waypoint.
  • There were a fair number of mid-flight PNR questions. Know your fuel policy well and remember to apply the correct fixed reserve (2250kg inflight) if it is a PNR/NO. Do not subtract taxi/shutdown fuel from the safe endurance for inflight PNR questions.
  • RTFQ: For those questions which ask for fuel required, read the question very carefully to see if they are asking for the required minimum FUEL ONBOARD or FLIGHT FUEL on startup.
  • With the RSWT winds, don't bother figuring out what the exact magnetic variation is for the sector. You'll just be eating into your precious exam time. Just round it to the nearest 5 degrees. For example, on a AD-PH flight, the initial climb will have you flying through a magnetic variation of 8E. In this case, just round it up to 10E. On the initial cruise, you'll encounter magnetic variations of 7E, 6E, 5E, 4E and 3E. Round to 5E. On the final cruise segments, you'll get variations of 2E, 1E, 0E, 1W and 2W. Round to 0E (i.e. just copy down the RSWT from the screen). However, if you are given those non-ERC ALPHA-BRAVO questions as mentioned above, just use the exact magnetic variation they give you in the question and apply it to the RSWT. I used this for my exam and it proved to be of sufficient accuracy.
  • Just a refresher: If you end up cruising at FL210 (right inbetween the two RSWT levels), use winds from FL235, not FL185. No interpolation required.
Good luck to everyone who is about to take this exam. Enjoy the beers afterwards. They certainly will taste good!

Awesome post thanks for taking the time to write that, will be sitting this exam in the next couple of months and those little tips I imagine will come in very handy
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Old 2nd Aug 2019, 11:14
  #295 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Sydney
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The key to passing... Rob Avery

The best tip I can give you... Go to Rob Avery. He has absolutely nailed the formula for beating this exam. Sat in on his class earlier this year, honestly couldn't make this subject clearer. I think he's back in Bankstown this October.
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Old 10th Sep 2019, 00:10
  #296 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: ToP_eNd
Posts: 11
WTF

Cannot for the life of me answer this question:

You are planning a flight from AUCKLAND (NZAA) to SYDNEY (YSSY).

You have the following planning data:

Maximum performance limited BRW AUCKLAND..... 85550 kg
Maximum performance limited LW SYDNEY............. 71450 kg
Basic Weight ............................................................ ... 47250 kg

SYDNEY is SUITABLE. AUCKLAND is ACCEPTABLE, but may be considered SUITABLE if 60 minutes holding fuel is carried.

Flight fuel for Normal Operations is 13950 kg.
Flight fuel for Normal Operations to the NZAA-YSSY CP/1-INOP then One Engine Inoperative Operations (1-INOP) from the CP is 14900 kg.
Flight fuel for Normal Operations to the NZAA-YSSY CP (Depressurised) then Depressurised from the CP is 15750 kg.

The maximum payload for the flight is closest to -16410 kg
16500 kg
16250 kg
16160 kg
16100 kg


The answer is 16160. If someone could explain how to get there I'll be forever in your debt.
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Old 10th Sep 2019, 00:28
  #297 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: ToP_eNd
Posts: 11
Nevermind, I figured it out
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