Charged a dual rate up until GFPT?
I've seen this one a few times. Usually it boils down to the fact that the solo rate is simply the cost of the plane, while the dual rate is the solo rate plus the cost of having an instructor. Pre GFPT, the instructor MUST stay on the ground at the school, or in the local training area. They cannot go home, or on a Nav, so you are most likely paying a Dual rate in order to pay for their time.
Even if we aren't in the plane, we're still responsible for you
Even if we aren't in the plane, we're still responsible for you
AustralianMade
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Seems like a reasonable explanation Cap'n Arr. Still find it interesting that some schools charge dual time and some don't. I wonder what the difference is?
The instructor supervising the solo student must remain on the ground while the student flies solo. This isn't productive time - which is why many schools charge a supervised solo rate of about $30/hr less than dual. If the instructor is a part-timer, they are paid about half their award rate for this time.
I can recall lots of hours spent sitting out in a paddock under a tree, brushing off hordes of friendly bushflies,listening out on a handheld, while a 'student' did endless circuits. Yes, it was at 'supervised solo' rates. And you think this should be free?? Wake up - the new generation of instructors won't be repeating the benevolent approach of the past.
happy days,
I can recall lots of hours spent sitting out in a paddock under a tree, brushing off hordes of friendly bushflies,listening out on a handheld, while a 'student' did endless circuits. Yes, it was at 'supervised solo' rates. And you think this should be free?? Wake up - the new generation of instructors won't be repeating the benevolent approach of the past.
happy days,
Cap'n ARR and poteroo seem to offer sensible advice.
Forget the comments suggesting you are being ripped off for the moment and have a think and make a few phone calls.
Its pretty hard to determine who knows what they are talking about here some times. Take all advise with a grain of salt, and do some investigating yourself.
I have absolutely no idea what schools are charging these days. Phone a few see what they offer.
Solo hours required x solo rate + Dual hours required x Dual rate = ? divide this amount by the toatl hours and you will get a rough idea of how two companies compare.
Do they all charge for briefings?
Determine if there are any other extra charges that could affect either organisation.
Consider the benifits of paying dual for your training.
IF your instructor is paid for the whole time you are flying up to GFPT, he will likely be a more content instructor(maybe not).
If he is only paid whilst he flies, i.e. when you are dual, he could conceivably spend more time dual, = more $$$ out of your pocket and more in his. This is possibly more likely to happen if you are only charged at the solo rate.
You need to do some home work and ask some questions.
At the end of the day, its the quality of the training that will save you $$$ and enable you to enjoy your flying, even if it costs you a few extra $$/hr.
Forget the comments suggesting you are being ripped off for the moment and have a think and make a few phone calls.
Its pretty hard to determine who knows what they are talking about here some times. Take all advise with a grain of salt, and do some investigating yourself.
I have absolutely no idea what schools are charging these days. Phone a few see what they offer.
Solo hours required x solo rate + Dual hours required x Dual rate = ? divide this amount by the toatl hours and you will get a rough idea of how two companies compare.
Do they all charge for briefings?
Determine if there are any other extra charges that could affect either organisation.
Consider the benifits of paying dual for your training.
IF your instructor is paid for the whole time you are flying up to GFPT, he will likely be a more content instructor(maybe not).
If he is only paid whilst he flies, i.e. when you are dual, he could conceivably spend more time dual, = more $$$ out of your pocket and more in his. This is possibly more likely to happen if you are only charged at the solo rate.
You need to do some home work and ask some questions.
At the end of the day, its the quality of the training that will save you $$$ and enable you to enjoy your flying, even if it costs you a few extra $$/hr.
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Is $215 dual expensive???
Have just taken a look at a highly reputable flying school (not BK) website and paste the following directly from there...
PIPER TOMAHAWK (PA38) : VH-
Hire: $207.00 ($188.18) Dual: $287.00 ($260.90)
Basic 2 seat low-wing trainer.
Normally there are rates for hire, dual and solo but I have noticed some don't have a separate solo rate these days - training is training after all and when you are sitting by the side of the runway biting your nails watching your prodigy on their first solo, yoy are still there. Maybe $215 is the solo rate and the instructor comes for free!
Operating any aircraft with Avgas upwards of $1.70 per litre, insurance, hangarage and airport charges - and the real biggy MAINTENANCE is becoming quite prohibitive and we should not be too surprised at those rates. Some operators who are trying not to pass-on the real costs will go out backwards pretty soon.
If you are happy with your $215/hr school and the instructors, stick with it, they are obviously a real steal!
Have just taken a look at a highly reputable flying school (not BK) website and paste the following directly from there...
PIPER TOMAHAWK (PA38) : VH-
Hire: $207.00 ($188.18) Dual: $287.00 ($260.90)
Basic 2 seat low-wing trainer.
Normally there are rates for hire, dual and solo but I have noticed some don't have a separate solo rate these days - training is training after all and when you are sitting by the side of the runway biting your nails watching your prodigy on their first solo, yoy are still there. Maybe $215 is the solo rate and the instructor comes for free!
Operating any aircraft with Avgas upwards of $1.70 per litre, insurance, hangarage and airport charges - and the real biggy MAINTENANCE is becoming quite prohibitive and we should not be too surprised at those rates. Some operators who are trying not to pass-on the real costs will go out backwards pretty soon.
If you are happy with your $215/hr school and the instructors, stick with it, they are obviously a real steal!
RENURPP's post is valid. If your instructor is well payed there is every chance you will get quality instruction. If these guys charge essentially a flat rate of $215ph to GFPT. If that goal is reached in minimum required hours at the REQUIRED STANDARD then that is money saved in comparison to even taking just ten hours longer to reach that goal and learning just enough to get passed. Investigation is required, talk to past students.
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Hourly Rates
Unless things have changed a Mid North Coast Aero club, affiliated with the RFACA, has always charged dual rate to all students until, pre GFPT days, they achieved their RPPL and latterly up until the completion of the GFPT. The rationale was/is as many other posters have indicated, that although the student may have been flying solo the Flying Instructor was responsible for planning the flight sequences.
In 1973 you could buy a Holden Kingswood for $3300 compared with what today? $35-40k
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I have worked at a number of flying schools dununda and it is standard practice to charge the full dual rate for all flying up until GFPT because casa require those students to have "direct supervision".
That means that an instructor is supposed to be supervising the whole operation.
With instructors becomming rarer than rocking horse poo operators are forced to pay higher salaries and that has to be funded.
Anyway, I say (toung-in-cheek) that if you're worried about spending money, then Aviation is not the game for you!
That means that an instructor is supposed to be supervising the whole operation.
With instructors becomming rarer than rocking horse poo operators are forced to pay higher salaries and that has to be funded.
Anyway, I say (toung-in-cheek) that if you're worried about spending money, then Aviation is not the game for you!
Moderator
A student pilot is a student pilot whether they have a GFPT or not, they still need permission (CAR 5.66) from a flight instructor and must conduct the flight in accordance with that permission. That instructor has the responsibility of ensuing that the flight can be conducted safely and legally.
The way we charge:
Dual = instructor on board whether pilot is a student or not
Supervised Solo = student solo (with or without GFPT, authorising instructor paid for the supervision)
Hire = PPL or higher licence, no permission or supervision required from an instructor.
The way we charge:
Dual = instructor on board whether pilot is a student or not
Supervised Solo = student solo (with or without GFPT, authorising instructor paid for the supervision)
Hire = PPL or higher licence, no permission or supervision required from an instructor.
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the new generation of instructors won't be repeating the benevolent approach of the past.
Nor should they.
If I've got someone doing laps and they're doing it solo they get charged the dual/training rate. How many of the above who are whinging about being charged dual rates instead of solo rates would go to work and expect to be paid nothing? If I have to be there, you get charged for my time. And $215 for a Tomahawk? We're here to make money sunshine.
If you don't like it go elsewhere.
If you don't like it go elsewhere.
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gassed budgie
DJ, they got you through your BAK, as the previous said if "I'm sitting out there on the scare chair you ARE paying dual, I'm not there to kick the dust with my boots baby". We charge $210 for a C152 dual so The Trauma Hawk is not that far off the money.
Kickatinalong.
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If you get charged the dual rate while doing solo, does that mean you should get charged $210 to do a pre-solo exam for an hour with an instructor watching over your shoulder to make sure you don't cheat?
(Or at least the rate for hiring an instructor?)
(Or at least the rate for hiring an instructor?)
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How funny! A total contrast in opinions on the matter.
First I want to remind a few that I wasn't making a complaint . I was asking way back in my first post if it was standard practice.
With some of the comments about being ripped off etc i had to wait for fair and balanced arguments to get an idea.
As far as the 215 rate i had no idea if it was a good rate or not and don't really care as the instruction and hours are what count. Its what i pay and will continue to pay.
Scottzilla90. Everyone needs to query if they are getting value for money on there endeavors as wasting it is regarded as a fools practice. People use places like this as a comparison for that exact reason. I am not worried about spending money ... I am worried about wasting it and in this case that would seem not to apply.
First I want to remind a few that I wasn't making a complaint . I was asking way back in my first post if it was standard practice.
With some of the comments about being ripped off etc i had to wait for fair and balanced arguments to get an idea. As far as the 215 rate i had no idea if it was a good rate or not and don't really care as the instruction and hours are what count. Its what i pay and will continue to pay.
Scottzilla90. Everyone needs to query if they are getting value for money on there endeavors as wasting it is regarded as a fools practice. People use places like this as a comparison for that exact reason. I am not worried about spending money ... I am worried about wasting it and in this case that would seem not to apply.
