National Jet T&C
Jack ****, you brainless flea,
The posts above mine refer to 5 yrs ahead. Do you have the retention span to read that many posts and recall their content?
I was putting a bit of perspective on it. If my numbers are inaccurate, then lets see the accuarte ones and a reference from where they come from, and not "my mate who knows some one who works" there type rubbish.
The following is copied directly from the SkyWest Airlines Pilot Agreement 2005.
I think we all expect QF and Virgin pay to be well above SkyWest, NJS etc no supprise there. I thought they may be further ahead.
Its not a formula **** for brains, with the exception that we don't know exactly what CPI will be, I guessed at an average of 3%. You can use whatever you want.
Even if the CPI is 0% or negative for the next 4 yrs an NJS F/O will be on $81,513, and thats a fact.
I can not find anywhere in my previous post that I said it was a good outcome, I simply posted what an NJS F/O will be on.
The posts above mine refer to 5 yrs ahead. Do you have the retention span to read that many posts and recall their content?
I was putting a bit of perspective on it. If my numbers are inaccurate, then lets see the accuarte ones and a reference from where they come from, and not "my mate who knows some one who works" there type rubbish.
The following is copied directly from the SkyWest Airlines Pilot Agreement 2005.
1st year of service
F50 First Officer$52,000 Captain $80,000
F100 First Officer$70,200 Captain $108,000
F50 First Officer$52,000 Captain $80,000
F100 First Officer$70,200 Captain $108,000
Its not a formula **** for brains, with the exception that we don't know exactly what CPI will be, I guessed at an average of 3%. You can use whatever you want.
Even if the CPI is 0% or negative for the next 4 yrs an NJS F/O will be on $81,513, and thats a fact.
I can not find anywhere in my previous post that I said it was a good outcome, I simply posted what an NJS F/O will be on.
Last edited by RENURPP; 25th Apr 2008 at 22:46.
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Wow... little defensive... why so worked up...?
I would like Capt Claret or Renurpp to answer tio540's question in post #19.
Bottums Up
Well, firstly tio, in post 19 should get his/her facts correct.
No it didn't. Try $61821.
Now $62K after 5 years, see above post.
No it isn't. After 5 years it will be $78228 plus CPI increments from Jul 08 onwards.
Well despite your facts being demonstrably wrong, the improvements came about by the pilot body showing unity, and working together, instead of slagging one another off, as happens here anonymously.
The B Scale was NEVER voted in, it was imposed because the IR legislation of the day allowed it to be. The same IR legislation made it illegal for anyone other than those on the agreement to take any action against the Ts & Cs while the agreement was valid.
By remaining united 146 & tio, & sanchez, we (the pilot body and Pilot Group Committee) managed to get the incentive hours scheme revoked, slightly better pay, refund of payment training contributions, a flat 2% per annum pay increase changed to CPI. These are all improvements won in 2007, last year.
Now what did you guys do to help?
ps, 146, your post (#21), you must have a very thin skin if you think what I've written is personal.
Originally Posted by tio
Dear Capt Claret.
Your pay improvement definition must be different to mine.
B717 F/O was $75K two years ago. Dropped to under $58K, for new recruits.
Your pay improvement definition must be different to mine.
B717 F/O was $75K two years ago. Dropped to under $58K, for new recruits.
Originally Posted by tio
Now $62K after 5 years, see above post.
Originally Posted by tio
How do you see this as an improvement?
The B Scale was NEVER voted in, it was imposed because the IR legislation of the day allowed it to be. The same IR legislation made it illegal for anyone other than those on the agreement to take any action against the Ts & Cs while the agreement was valid.
By remaining united 146 & tio, & sanchez, we (the pilot body and Pilot Group Committee) managed to get the incentive hours scheme revoked, slightly better pay, refund of payment training contributions, a flat 2% per annum pay increase changed to CPI. These are all improvements won in 2007, last year.
Now what did you guys do to help?
ps, 146, your post (#21), you must have a very thin skin if you think what I've written is personal.
146, I am not supporting the company. I simply advised what the guys are really on, and then some dip**** reckons by telling the truth you are management stool. Surely you would rather have the facts then some crap that is way off the mark.
By the way i am not worked up, thats just how I see it.
By the way i am not worked up, thats just how I see it.
Last edited by RENURPP; 26th Apr 2008 at 05:24.
For 146's benifit. The B Scale conditions that were bought in are definitley not an increase. I doubt you will find a post where I have suggested that B scale is a good thing.
They were introduced against the wishes of pretty much every Pilot.
The IR legislation at the time allowed the company to introduce AWA's on th terms on offer and if accepted there was bugger all any one accept the Pilot who was being offered the conditions could do about it.
The problem being, Pilots conitued to que up and accept the crap conditions. Whilst they are on offer and not many people leave the company will keep offering them.
Contrary to idiots like Minima No Contact stating that masses of Pilots were about to leave months ago, it hasn't happened. Again if they did the pay issue would be addressed. NJS has a lower Pilot turn over than QF/Virgin and JetStar, (at the moment) go figure.
His and some of his ilks, total input was to Log on to PPRUNE and throw stones at the people trying to change things. He doesn't have the brain power to come up with a single idea, yet he will get on here and slag the people that are trying, thats his mentality.
I can tell you for a fact that most of the know it alls on here have absolutely no input to improving current T and C's. If they did they should have put their hands up and assisted. They were all toooooo busy.
tooo busy talking **** on PPRUNE, or thumping their hairless chests in the crew room. CC stated there have been improvements on the initial B Scale, to the point where it is similar to SkyWest, Alliance, Air North and Australian Express Frieghters, but I agree with you it is still hopeless. After 4 yrs it is better as I indicated above.
The A scale, (lack of a better term) is not too bad and is much better than the above.
They were introduced against the wishes of pretty much every Pilot.
The IR legislation at the time allowed the company to introduce AWA's on th terms on offer and if accepted there was bugger all any one accept the Pilot who was being offered the conditions could do about it.
The problem being, Pilots conitued to que up and accept the crap conditions. Whilst they are on offer and not many people leave the company will keep offering them.
Contrary to idiots like Minima No Contact stating that masses of Pilots were about to leave months ago, it hasn't happened. Again if they did the pay issue would be addressed. NJS has a lower Pilot turn over than QF/Virgin and JetStar, (at the moment) go figure.
His and some of his ilks, total input was to Log on to PPRUNE and throw stones at the people trying to change things. He doesn't have the brain power to come up with a single idea, yet he will get on here and slag the people that are trying, thats his mentality.
I can tell you for a fact that most of the know it alls on here have absolutely no input to improving current T and C's. If they did they should have put their hands up and assisted. They were all toooooo busy.
tooo busy talking **** on PPRUNE, or thumping their hairless chests in the crew room. CC stated there have been improvements on the initial B Scale, to the point where it is similar to SkyWest, Alliance, Air North and Australian Express Frieghters, but I agree with you it is still hopeless. After 4 yrs it is better as I indicated above.The A scale, (lack of a better term) is not too bad and is much better than the above.
Last edited by RENURPP; 26th Apr 2008 at 05:21.
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RENURPP,
Your facts are indeed wrong. From the Skywest Pilot's Agreement 2005.
1st Year F100 F/O $70,200 plus 3% per annum which means;
1st July 2006 $72,306
1st July 2007 $74,475
1st July 2008 $76,709
1st July 2009 $79,010
1st July 2010 $81,381
1st July 2011 $83,822
1st July 2012 $86,337
Also, if your F/O becomes a Captain after 5 years He/She will be on a 5th year scale which in 2012 will be $140,205
so for someone who is so keen on accurate figures I think you need to hit the calculator again......
Your facts are indeed wrong. From the Skywest Pilot's Agreement 2005.
1st Year F100 F/O $70,200 plus 3% per annum which means;
1st July 2006 $72,306
1st July 2007 $74,475
1st July 2008 $76,709
1st July 2009 $79,010
1st July 2010 $81,381
1st July 2011 $83,822
1st July 2012 $86,337
Also, if your F/O becomes a Captain after 5 years He/She will be on a 5th year scale which in 2012 will be $140,205
so for someone who is so keen on accurate figures I think you need to hit the calculator again......
XRlent,
Yes you are correct. i didn't add the 3% for this year or looking back to 2005, it wasn't intended to make the numbers look good or bad for either side.
I was only working on 4 years.
So thanks and the accurate comparison after lets make it to 1st July 2012, i.e. 4 yrs -
SkyWest F/O 1st July 2012 $86,337
NJS F/O 1st July 2012 $91,744
SkyWest Capt 1 st July 2012 $140,205
NJS Capt 1st July 2012 $148,453.
Now the intention isn't to make one sound better than the other as you need to consider ALL the T&C's not simply a base wage. If we did the calculation starting on the 1st July 2008, and made them cumulative for 5 yrs I come up with the following.SkyWest F/O $407,259 and NJS 381,977.
Both companies have there good and bad points. Some of the above were advertising it as the worst paid jet job in Aus, well thats simply not true. The first few years it may be but if you intend staying it changes.
As some one said earlier on, prospective employees have every right to know what they will get.
I want to dispell the crap that wasn't being written as fact. We all make mistakes. Some do it intentionally.
Yes you are correct. i didn't add the 3% for this year or looking back to 2005, it wasn't intended to make the numbers look good or bad for either side.
I was only working on 4 years.
So thanks and the accurate comparison after lets make it to 1st July 2012, i.e. 4 yrs -
SkyWest F/O 1st July 2012 $86,337
NJS F/O 1st July 2012 $91,744
SkyWest Capt 1 st July 2012 $140,205
NJS Capt 1st July 2012 $148,453.
Now the intention isn't to make one sound better than the other as you need to consider ALL the T&C's not simply a base wage. If we did the calculation starting on the 1st July 2008, and made them cumulative for 5 yrs I come up with the following.SkyWest F/O $407,259 and NJS 381,977.
Both companies have there good and bad points. Some of the above were advertising it as the worst paid jet job in Aus, well thats simply not true. The first few years it may be but if you intend staying it changes.
As some one said earlier on, prospective employees have every right to know what they will get.
I want to dispell the crap that wasn't being written as fact. We all make mistakes. Some do it intentionally.
Last edited by RENURPP; 26th Apr 2008 at 22:08.
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and that's the point 55 - the AWA apparently capable of being a individually negotiated instrument, had in fact been 'collectively negotiated' for the individual - leaving no room for an individual to negotiate.
Hats off to CC and Renurpp and the others who stood united - they did make a difference.
As an aside - how do you think those fantastic figures appeared for the pilots in the other NJS company?
Hats off to CC and Renurpp and the others who stood united - they did make a difference.
As an aside - how do you think those fantastic figures appeared for the pilots in the other NJS company?
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wrong again kavakid
You guys are clearly happy and proud to be the lowest paid jet jockeys in Oz, so be it
You are wrong again
and don't seem to have any idea, so be it. 
Does anyone have a link to the new 2007/08 NJS pilot contract/EBA or a copy(pdf) please????
A net google search found nothing and despite spelling out the companies full name the
search function here keeps telling me "jet " has only 3 letters and wont show any search results!!!
This may help clarify some conflicting numbers posted here for a start.
Any info appreciated, thanks.
A net google search found nothing and despite spelling out the companies full name the
search function here keeps telling me "jet " has only 3 letters and wont show any search results!!!This may help clarify some conflicting numbers posted here for a start.
Any info appreciated, thanks.
An observation guys.
The stated payrate for a 100 seat Jet F/O at SkyWest in 2012 will be approx what DJ are paying a 70 seat Jet F/O in 2008! And the rate for a DJ E-Jet F/O is nothing to write home about.
If those at SkyWest are happy with that lot, then fine. It appears to me however that we still have a long way to go!
The stated payrate for a 100 seat Jet F/O at SkyWest in 2012 will be approx what DJ are paying a 70 seat Jet F/O in 2008! And the rate for a DJ E-Jet F/O is nothing to write home about.
If those at SkyWest are happy with that lot, then fine. It appears to me however that we still have a long way to go!
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Remember guys, Skywest's agreement was signed in 2005, back then the rates of pay were considered "adequate" for the time. Since then alot has happened in the industry, and XR's agreement comes to the table again shortly.
JarJar
JarJar
Bottums Up
Originally Posted by tio540
What was I thinking?
An improvement was won last year. I repeat, it wasn't great but it was an improvement. People keep accepting it, perhaps you should become the protector and stop them.
As an aside, Virgin and JetStar did/still do require one to pay for an endorsement, or already be endorsed on type. NJS doesn't. The $$ amount the "B Scalers" are behind is close to what an A320 or B737 endorsement costs.
If what Capt Claret says is true re B scale, and I assume it is then pilots are effectively paying for the endo in which case a 3yr/30K should not apply.
If you start on full A scale rate and you dont pay for any of it then fair enough with the bond.
If you start on full A scale rate and you dont pay for any of it then fair enough with the bond.
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Alliance F100 FOs start on $66000 with a 2 year bond. They are paid this from day one, no training wages. Captains are on $106,000.
I've heard Skyairworld are paying $135,000 for Captains and $80,000 for FOs
Most new pilots joining Virgin on the E-jet will start on level 1 pay which from July 2008 will be $76,640. After gaining 500hrs on type they will move to level 2 pay which is $83,608. Based on flying 75 hrs/month they should reach this after 8 months (allowing for ground schools etc in the first month). So their base first year pay would be $78962.66. Less the $30000 for the endorsement makes a base of $48962.66. Using the same 75 hrs/month would also give them 4 hours of overtime per month and based on 10 months of flying would be an extra $3616 for the first year, throw in 10 o/n per month once again based on 10 months of flying gives an extra $11505 per year. So an E-jet FO at Virgin could earn approx. $64083.66 for the first year. In their second year they would be on a min of $83608 and throw in overtime and o/n allowances and they could earn just under $100,000.
Now if the FO is still an FO in 2011 (when the current EBA expires) they would be on a min. base of $98,974. If the FO gets a command slot in 2011 they would be on a min. base of $152,267.
So for the first year there may not be much difference between the two companies, however once entering your second year at Virgin you start to pull ahead of the NJS FO. Having said that, the B717 sounds like a nice aircraft to fly (much like the F100), it’s a shame the pay is not higher.
I've heard Skyairworld are paying $135,000 for Captains and $80,000 for FOs
Most new pilots joining Virgin on the E-jet will start on level 1 pay which from July 2008 will be $76,640. After gaining 500hrs on type they will move to level 2 pay which is $83,608. Based on flying 75 hrs/month they should reach this after 8 months (allowing for ground schools etc in the first month). So their base first year pay would be $78962.66. Less the $30000 for the endorsement makes a base of $48962.66. Using the same 75 hrs/month would also give them 4 hours of overtime per month and based on 10 months of flying would be an extra $3616 for the first year, throw in 10 o/n per month once again based on 10 months of flying gives an extra $11505 per year. So an E-jet FO at Virgin could earn approx. $64083.66 for the first year. In their second year they would be on a min of $83608 and throw in overtime and o/n allowances and they could earn just under $100,000.
Now if the FO is still an FO in 2011 (when the current EBA expires) they would be on a min. base of $98,974. If the FO gets a command slot in 2011 they would be on a min. base of $152,267.
So for the first year there may not be much difference between the two companies, however once entering your second year at Virgin you start to pull ahead of the NJS FO. Having said that, the B717 sounds like a nice aircraft to fly (much like the F100), it’s a shame the pay is not higher.