Merged: Van seaplane arse over kite in Darwhine..
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Perth
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Wiz that flash voice I am pretty sure is stall warning activated. Thats why you always heard it when doing wing overs
It has occured before that gear down landings and A/C still in reasonable form.
The force was with him ....
Talkin of C.P's and floats I once had one land in a small bay and wipe out the rear mast of yacht in DHC-2. Marvelous thing that wing bent back on 45deg angle still atached. Ops rings up and asks how badly damaged can a beaver wing be before you no fly him any more
Funny buggers
It has occured before that gear down landings and A/C still in reasonable form.
The force was with him ....
Talkin of C.P's and floats I once had one land in a small bay and wipe out the rear mast of yacht in DHC-2. Marvelous thing that wing bent back on 45deg angle still atached. Ops rings up and asks how badly damaged can a beaver wing be before you no fly him any more
Funny buggers
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Lack of discipline
Anyone can have a bad day in the office however to mess up so badly shows a complete lack of discipline in the cockpit. We have checks to do as pilots - we're taught this in our first days on the job. To miss such a fundamental action - as simple as knowing where your wheels are, or are not - is completely bewildering. A cheap seaplane endorsement in most cases is conducted in a straight floatplane; and I'm not sure that all training organisations provide vital information to the student who may at some point fly an amphibian. The moment you start flying a seaplane, your checklists must include "this is a water landing/take-off" or "this is a land landing/take-off"; whether you are flying an amphibian or a straight floatplane. This will guarantee a long and safe water flying life; and will dramatically reduce the cost of seaplane insurance for everyone else!
Bottums Up
I'd argue the opposite courier.
IMO flying is conducted a very dynamic environment where interruptions almost the name of the game. For me, and some others, it's easier to understand how a mistake might come to be, than to ridicule the person for making what appears to be a simple and basic error.
I believe it's safe to assume that very, very, few pilots have intentionally landed with the gear up, or in the case of our floating bretheren, down. It follows that they throught, for what ever reason that it was down for landies, nd up for floaties, yet it wasn't where they thought. It's a bit simplistic to explain the plethora of such occurrences as just "s/he's stupid", particularly without examining the circumstances.
Question
Has any one investigated the subject Caravan to determine the position of the gear handle, and if the gear indicating system was working properly?
IMO flying is conducted a very dynamic environment where interruptions almost the name of the game. For me, and some others, it's easier to understand how a mistake might come to be, than to ridicule the person for making what appears to be a simple and basic error.
I believe it's safe to assume that very, very, few pilots have intentionally landed with the gear up, or in the case of our floating bretheren, down. It follows that they throught, for what ever reason that it was down for landies, nd up for floaties, yet it wasn't where they thought. It's a bit simplistic to explain the plethora of such occurrences as just "s/he's stupid", particularly without examining the circumstances.
Question
Has any one investigated the subject Caravan to determine the position of the gear handle, and if the gear indicating system was working properly?
Last edited by Capt Claret; 15th Apr 2008 at 04:35.
Join Date: Dec 2006
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Could happen at any time to any amphib.
It can all happen to easy....... I have landed an amphib without MENTALLY checking the gear position 
It was in a very high work load situation trying to relay a message for a badly injured boatie... whilst talking to passengers, a boat on marine band, getting an ATC clearance and talking to company on VHF all in a 6 minute flight..... It was only after I had landed, taxied in and shut down that I realised I hadn't check the gear position 
Lucky for me, my automatic actions put everything where they should be. But it could so easily have been a different story. 
It was a welcome reminder of just how easy it is to get distracted at critical times. I just hope that uneasy feeling I got when I realised what I had done stays in the back of my mind for every landing.
TrolleyDriver
It was in a very high work load situation trying to relay a message for a badly injured boatie... whilst talking to passengers, a boat on marine band, getting an ATC clearance and talking to company on VHF all in a 6 minute flight..... It was only after I had landed, taxied in and shut down that I realised I hadn't check the gear position Lucky for me, my automatic actions put everything where they should be. But it could so easily have been a different story. It was a welcome reminder of just how easy it is to get distracted at critical times. I just hope that uneasy feeling I got when I realised what I had done stays in the back of my mind for every landing.
TrolleyDriver
Silly Old Git
Thread Starter
I know nothing of floaty planes so a couple of questions please
1. How do you brake them on land?
2.How do you steer them on land?
3.Does the wheel bits sit in the water all the time i,e when retracted?
4. If they got brakes etc how often do they need cleaning service etc?
5.Is the above part of the pilots duty ?
1. How do you brake them on land?
2.How do you steer them on land?
3.Does the wheel bits sit in the water all the time i,e when retracted?
4. If they got brakes etc how often do they need cleaning service etc?
5.Is the above part of the pilots duty ?
Tin,
1. With the rear wheel brakes.
2. Differential rear wheel brakes.
3. Rear wheels yes, front wheels no.
4. All the time. Also wheel bearings and the gear extension links.
5. Has been known to be.
They also crz a lot slower, are less longitudinally stable and stall at lower airspeed than same a/c without floats. Check 4 blue lights on water, 4 green lights on land. Always.
1. With the rear wheel brakes.
2. Differential rear wheel brakes.
3. Rear wheels yes, front wheels no.
4. All the time. Also wheel bearings and the gear extension links.
5. Has been known to be.
They also crz a lot slower, are less longitudinally stable and stall at lower airspeed than same a/c without floats. Check 4 blue lights on water, 4 green lights on land. Always.
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The safest place for the wheels on an amphibian is "up", you can walk away with a wheels up on land with not much more than a damaged ego, but you won't walk away from a wheels down on the water..
Join Date: Feb 2007
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tinpis,
rules for uncertain gear position.
rule 1: if any doubt land on land.
rule 2: if not sure apply rule 1.
IMHO mirrors should be mandatory on amphibs as you can positively confirm the gear is up for water (it doesn't confirm that the gear is locked down for landing on land though).
courier,
IMHO a bit of an arrogant, complacent attitude. The only way to guarantee that this wont occur is not to fly amphibs. I am nervous anytime the wheels are down, and I work hard on that attitude. Whilst I believe I know my gear selection I select, check and challenge. As well as doing PUFR checks, every time I move the power lever / throttle on final I mentally confirm that I have considered the relationship of my gear selection with the surface I intend to land on for this particular approach.
Gear selection in an amphibian is a human factors nightmare - basically everything else is the same irrespective of the surface except for the gear position. Those that have extensive land based retractable time have to get out of the mind set of 'wheels down for landing' and 'green is safe'. I have heard of experienced training pilots being tripped up by a student extending gear on short final. A good trick when checking the gear an an amphib is to tap the gear selector and rather than grabbing it to make it impossible to inadvertently extend the gear at this stage. As proven here again, gear down in an amphib is the least safe configuration. The newer amphibian installations now have amber lights for wheels down to reflect this.
I do agree that the landing check is essential, as is checklist discipline. However, I do not know of an amphibian pilot that has not had their gear in an undesirable configuration whether by selection or mechanical fault at some stage in their career. The float industry in Australia is quite small, yet I know of a number of pilots who have landed with the incorrect gear selection, including some that have a huge amount of amphib experience, and some that have done it twice.
capt claret, beeva, trolleydriver -
Re selection / indication. Even if there was a fault that resulted in the gear failing to retract, the checks are to designed to detect incorrect gear position not incorrect gear selection. These checks include a physical look at the window at the position of the nose wheel - if in doubt refer to rule 1.
rules for uncertain gear position.
rule 1: if any doubt land on land.
rule 2: if not sure apply rule 1.
IMHO mirrors should be mandatory on amphibs as you can positively confirm the gear is up for water (it doesn't confirm that the gear is locked down for landing on land though).
courier,
IMHO a bit of an arrogant, complacent attitude. The only way to guarantee that this wont occur is not to fly amphibs. I am nervous anytime the wheels are down, and I work hard on that attitude. Whilst I believe I know my gear selection I select, check and challenge. As well as doing PUFR checks, every time I move the power lever / throttle on final I mentally confirm that I have considered the relationship of my gear selection with the surface I intend to land on for this particular approach.
Gear selection in an amphibian is a human factors nightmare - basically everything else is the same irrespective of the surface except for the gear position. Those that have extensive land based retractable time have to get out of the mind set of 'wheels down for landing' and 'green is safe'. I have heard of experienced training pilots being tripped up by a student extending gear on short final. A good trick when checking the gear an an amphib is to tap the gear selector and rather than grabbing it to make it impossible to inadvertently extend the gear at this stage. As proven here again, gear down in an amphib is the least safe configuration. The newer amphibian installations now have amber lights for wheels down to reflect this.
I do agree that the landing check is essential, as is checklist discipline. However, I do not know of an amphibian pilot that has not had their gear in an undesirable configuration whether by selection or mechanical fault at some stage in their career. The float industry in Australia is quite small, yet I know of a number of pilots who have landed with the incorrect gear selection, including some that have a huge amount of amphib experience, and some that have done it twice.
capt claret, beeva, trolleydriver -
Re selection / indication. Even if there was a fault that resulted in the gear failing to retract, the checks are to designed to detect incorrect gear position not incorrect gear selection. These checks include a physical look at the window at the position of the nose wheel - if in doubt refer to rule 1.
