logging flight time
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logging flight time
I have a few queries about logging flight time, as follows:
1) Can a PPL holder or above, log flight tests and checkrides, such as for the issue of CPL, ME-CIR, as PIC, if he/she is endorsed on type? Or does it count as dual?
2) Is there anytime two pilots can log PIC simulataneously ?
3) What manner of flight time logging, if any, can a safety pilot undertake?
Just a bit curious. Seems like people are doing some strange things in the USA and their interpretations of logging PIC. It is my view that a pilot, no matter what class of license he holds, must log flight time under instruction always as dual.
Moreover, even though a pilot may be endorsed on type, if he/she is undergoing a flight test, then that must also be logged as dual. After all the testing officer, who will almost invariable be much more qualified and expirienced, is ultimately responsible for the safe conduct of the flight, even though you might be the sole manipulator of controls.
I would appreciate some input from others as to how they log their flight times.
cheers.
1) Can a PPL holder or above, log flight tests and checkrides, such as for the issue of CPL, ME-CIR, as PIC, if he/she is endorsed on type? Or does it count as dual?
2) Is there anytime two pilots can log PIC simulataneously ?
3) What manner of flight time logging, if any, can a safety pilot undertake?
Just a bit curious. Seems like people are doing some strange things in the USA and their interpretations of logging PIC. It is my view that a pilot, no matter what class of license he holds, must log flight time under instruction always as dual.
Moreover, even though a pilot may be endorsed on type, if he/she is undergoing a flight test, then that must also be logged as dual. After all the testing officer, who will almost invariable be much more qualified and expirienced, is ultimately responsible for the safe conduct of the flight, even though you might be the sole manipulator of controls.
I would appreciate some input from others as to how they log their flight times.
cheers.
Depends entirely on the rules pertaining to the license you hold.
Don't go by US regs if not flying on a US license. US rules are so stupid an ATP holder in the back seat of a cherokee may be deemed to be PIC by a court if the two PPL's in the front seats screw up.
Don't go by US regs if not flying on a US license. US rules are so stupid an ATP holder in the back seat of a cherokee may be deemed to be PIC by a court if the two PPL's in the front seats screw up.
1. Must be logged as dual. The ATO is PIC.
2. No. The closest is one logs PIC, the other ICUS. Does not apply to private flights before anyone gets carried away.
3. None. They are a glorified passenger.
2. No. The closest is one logs PIC, the other ICUS. Does not apply to private flights before anyone gets carried away.
3. None. They are a glorified passenger.
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hmmm... some more differences in AUS/NZ law:
1: Yes, you can, do and should log all flight-test time of whatever nature as PinC. You are the PinC; the flight-testing officer is there to check and assess your conduct of the flight as PinC, not to instruct you or in any other way manipulate the controls, unless you get yourself into a situation which you can't recover.
2: No. There can only ever be one individual in command at a time. Either you are or you are not. Log it appropriately.
3: I'm not sure of the current state of Safety Pilot time logging, despite having logged some myself years ago. Best check with the regulator if you can't find definitive answers in your AIP.
1: Yes, you can, do and should log all flight-test time of whatever nature as PinC. You are the PinC; the flight-testing officer is there to check and assess your conduct of the flight as PinC, not to instruct you or in any other way manipulate the controls, unless you get yourself into a situation which you can't recover.
2: No. There can only ever be one individual in command at a time. Either you are or you are not. Log it appropriately.
3: I'm not sure of the current state of Safety Pilot time logging, despite having logged some myself years ago. Best check with the regulator if you can't find definitive answers in your AIP.
Not sure about that, Dr Killer... in a flight test, for example an instrument rating initial issue, the candidate does not yet hold the instrument rating, therefore cannot fly as PIC under the IFR. Ergo, the examiner, who one assumes is qualified, is PIC.
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Originally Posted by bentleg
You might also check out the Ops manaual where you fly...
1) Oz PPL Flight Test - logged with FTO as PIC
2) Oz Class 4 IR - logged with self as PIC
3) NZ CPL Flight Test - logged with self as PIC
4) NZ C Cat Flight Test - logged with self as PIC
5) NZ SECIR Flight Test - logged with self as PIC
6) Oz CPL Flight Test - logged with self as PIC
7) Oz MECIR Flight Test - logged with self as PIC
Beats me!
Dr
PS: ......but then again, I've also done 3 x MECIR renewals all logged as PIC in an aeroplane for which I don't hold an endorsement!
2) Oz Class 4 IR - logged with self as PIC
3) NZ CPL Flight Test - logged with self as PIC
4) NZ C Cat Flight Test - logged with self as PIC
5) NZ SECIR Flight Test - logged with self as PIC
6) Oz CPL Flight Test - logged with self as PIC
7) Oz MECIR Flight Test - logged with self as PIC
Beats me!
Dr
PS: ......but then again, I've also done 3 x MECIR renewals all logged as PIC in an aeroplane for which I don't hold an endorsement!
I can't find the reg to back it up, but everyone I know has logged flight tests as dual. A bit frustrating to base a comment on hearsay.
However, I bet the ATO isn't logging the time as dual...
However, I bet the ATO isn't logging the time as dual...
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FTS
As I previously indicated the ATO does not necessarily log any flight time at all - let alone PIC.
I have had an ATO sitting in the jumpseat who was not qualified on type - how could he possibly log command time??
Goes to show broad reaching statements can often be fraught with inaccuracy.
As I previously indicated the ATO does not necessarily log any flight time at all - let alone PIC.
I have had an ATO sitting in the jumpseat who was not qualified on type - how could he possibly log command time??
Goes to show broad reaching statements can often be fraught with inaccuracy.
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I thought that the regs were pretty clear that it was up to the operator to nominate a Pilot In Command for every flight, and the vast majority of flying schools ops manuals nominate the ATO as PIC on a flight test?
Will go looking for references tonight.
Will go looking for references tonight.
We are talking about your typical GA flight test, not too many jump seats in a Cessna.
If you have a look at the CPL 150hour test checklist, it requires the following from the ATO:
If you have a look at the CPL 150hour test checklist, it requires the following from the ATO:
- Holds a current Class 1 medical
- Holds a CPL or higher
- Holds a Grade 1 instructor rating
- Holds testing approval
- Is endorsed on the aircraft type/class at the time of flight test
Training: the ATO/Instructor is the one in Command, teaching you how to... , so logged as Dual (Instructional).
Test: You are ICUS with the ATO really "in command"/responsible for any stuff ups. Not until you gain your logbook sticker/endorsement/kiss on the cheek are you able to log straight command time, for whatever you did your test for.
Renewals on equip/quals that you already have, I have always logged as ICUS, purely because the flight test is seeing if I'm up to scratch. If I am, I get the renewal/stamp/kiss on the cheek again (
)
Not gospel of course, just how I've been informed to do it.
Test: You are ICUS with the ATO really "in command"/responsible for any stuff ups. Not until you gain your logbook sticker/endorsement/kiss on the cheek are you able to log straight command time, for whatever you did your test for.
Renewals on equip/quals that you already have, I have always logged as ICUS, purely because the flight test is seeing if I'm up to scratch. If I am, I get the renewal/stamp/kiss on the cheek again (
)Not gospel of course, just how I've been informed to do it.
CAR 5.78 says that a PPL is authorised to fly an aeroplane as PIC or co-pilot whilst the aerpolane is engaged in private operation or as PIC in flying training operations.
The only mention of training operations in the classification of "private operation" is conversion training for the purpose or endorsement of an additional type or category of aircraft.
The only mention of training operations in the classification of "private operation" is conversion training for the purpose or endorsement of an additional type or category of aircraft.
CAR 5.78 says that a PPL is authorised to fly an aeroplane as PIC or co-pilot whilst the aerpolane is engaged in private operation or as PIC in flying training operations.
When you're paying for an instructor to sit next to you (be they an examiner or not), the time is dual.
All other times are Command. ICUS is only available under specific conditions spelled out in the Ops Manual of the company, and not available at all unless you hold a CPL.
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Whats a couple of extra hours the concern for anyway, with all the traineeships on offer its not like you need 6000PIC hours.
I wish people would get the whole hour thing out of their head and worry about gaining some experience instead.
I wish people would get the whole hour thing out of their head and worry about gaining some experience instead.