R/T phraseology .... AGAIN!
When you live....
"Cessna 172 ABC ready 17 left for the circuit dual with November?"
Changed about a year ago - intention - presumably to give the tower some clue as to the competency of those on board.
UTR
Seasonally Adjusted
Reference to the ATC station should be called only the one time on initial contact. After that it should just be 'ABC request ...' and so on for each subsequent request or other matter, until instructed to contact the following frequency.
"The call sign of the station or service being called must be included at the beginning of each exchange on VHF or HF. (My bolding).
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We all drive a car that is required to be operated within the road rules but who does? NOBODY. Like aviation NOBODY operatesentirely within the rules either. Common sense should prevail on & off the air ! Just because it's written doesn't mean it's the most sensible approach!
CW
CW
Last edited by Capt Wally; 7th Apr 2008 at 10:46. Reason: should have payed (attension) at school during English!:-) no doubt the spelling police will be in here too
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Most of the examples Icarus mentions have arisen from the LCD (lowest common denominator) theory.
Line up and wait RW 16R"
Was I going to do anything else after lining up?
Certain Asian carrier started the take off roll, hence we now add wait (LCD 1)
ABC - "Tower, ABC ready"
Tower "ABC - Hold at the holding point"
Certain international airline crossed the hold after callsign only acknowledgement - wasn't sure if we missed the line up clearance! (LCD 2)
Again, what else am I going to do?
Climb and maintain 5000'
Certain pocket rocket zoomed through 5 on the way to FL130 cause we thought it was only the PDC stop and didn't apply after radar ident!! (LCD 3)
So when we say maintain we really really mean it!
Pleanty of other examples that have arisen to remove the LCD factor from anything we say to the PIC. But..as mentioned elsewhere ATC phrases have gone from MATS 'cause AIP is the go. Which is really cool except that a large number of the people I speak to daily use Jepps and there are subtle differences in this doc compared to the AIP.
EG - we now must say "..cleared ILS 21 APP" cause AIP says use the chart title which is pretty much a**e about to what I am really thinking. Which is clearance/runway/approach. Spend so much time thinking of which order to say it that I forget what I am really saying!!
Line up and wait RW 16R"
Was I going to do anything else after lining up?
Certain Asian carrier started the take off roll, hence we now add wait (LCD 1)
ABC - "Tower, ABC ready"
Tower "ABC - Hold at the holding point"
Certain international airline crossed the hold after callsign only acknowledgement - wasn't sure if we missed the line up clearance! (LCD 2)
Again, what else am I going to do?
Climb and maintain 5000'
Certain pocket rocket zoomed through 5 on the way to FL130 cause we thought it was only the PDC stop and didn't apply after radar ident!! (LCD 3)
So when we say maintain we really really mean it!
Pleanty of other examples that have arisen to remove the LCD factor from anything we say to the PIC. But..as mentioned elsewhere ATC phrases have gone from MATS 'cause AIP is the go. Which is really cool except that a large number of the people I speak to daily use Jepps and there are subtle differences in this doc compared to the AIP.
EG - we now must say "..cleared ILS 21 APP" cause AIP says use the chart title which is pretty much a**e about to what I am really thinking. Which is clearance/runway/approach. Spend so much time thinking of which order to say it that I forget what I am really saying!!
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I still hear a lot of "ABC, downwind runway 29, fullstop" from arriving aircraft that are obviously not training.
Always tempted to pipe up with "What? No circuits today?"
Always tempted to pipe up with "What? No circuits today?"
I once heard a QF B737 calling a five mile final at YPKA. "QFxxxx, 5 mile final runway 08 full-stop landing." I had to bite my tongue and didn't say, "so not doing a touch and go today then Qantas?"
From the Jepps ATC Comm section:
"Turning final (with intentions)"
Or for a Straight in,
"1nm final (with intentions)"
Last of all, this example from the DOTARS training material for a straight in approach at a non towered aerodrome:
“Bathurst Traffic, C152, TEB, 1nm final runway 17, full stop, Bathurst”
From Jepps ATC 6.10.1
"The call sign of the station or service being called must be included at the beginning of each exchange on VHF or HF. (My bolding).
"The call sign of the station or service being called must be included at the beginning of each exchange on VHF or HF. (My bolding).
That is a sub paragraph that follows under the main heading of: 'Radio Telephony Requirements OUTSIDE Controlled Airspace'. Reference: Jepps ATC 6.10
My beef is with aircraft prefixing all transmissions after initial contact inside controlled airspace.
Perhaps NFR, SM4 or other ATCs who always helpfully contribute can comment.
You only need to prefix it on first contact.
For example
Jandakot Tower, ABC C152 six south, 1500 recieved Bravo inbound.
then
ABC Forrestdale lake.
We know who you are at that point and are expecting your call, its just another 2 words on an already busy frequency.
Same as the downwind call on each circuit, you don't need to say "(Location) Tower downwind touch and go" each time, we know who we are
For example
Jandakot Tower, ABC C152 six south, 1500 recieved Bravo inbound.
then
ABC Forrestdale lake.
We know who you are at that point and are expecting your call, its just another 2 words on an already busy frequency.
Same as the downwind call on each circuit, you don't need to say "(Location) Tower downwind touch and go" each time, we know who we are
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Thx Jenna,
AIP ref not at hand, but I would certainly expect that once comms are established that there is no need to state who you are calling. The initial call has a few purposes I suppose:
1) Who I'm looking for (as in unit you are calling), if you've dialed the wrong digits; easier for me to say wrong number if I'm working sectors and you call for departures or approach/TWR etc., gives me an idea of where to look for the right numbers.
2) It's me over here who you just accepted (of course sometimes we take more than one at a time); bit confusing when people use the "ML Centre" when already established (usually with a request pending), who, where, don't remember taking another, oh wait he's already there.
3) It's sort of an alert to similar callsigned beasts that it's someone new calling, be careful.
Re OCTA comms ref, although I generally don't read Jepps; I'd suggest it's about history, where once upon a time in the great world formerly known as OCTA about 1 in 3 transmissions were for the benefit of the ATS officer. i.e. pilot to pilot over area freq, or 'broadcast' (all stations and the like) of intentions were much more commonplace. They do of course still occur.
Sometimes as the ATC it's still difficult to know why the call was directed at me. e.g. calls out of the blue: goes something like this (happens at least once a week):
"Melbourne Centre VFR maintaining A075"
Me {Thinking} Why are you calling?; "VFR, ML Centre, go ahead"
"ML Centre, VFR say again"
"VFR, did you require assistance or information"
"ML Centre, VFR, negative"
Me {thinking} what just happened?
Of course I have a 'legal obligation' to find out why you are calling, cause if something actually happens and I don't it's tea and bickies with the boss, a.k.a. "please explain".
PS don't broadcast 'ML Centre Bigjet203, request'; just say the request (eg Bigjet203 request CCTS on arrival ILS/RNAV-Z approach etc.), if I'm busy I'll ask you to wait (STBY/WAD); same as if you have 'propositioned the request'. We usually can't dictate the workload involved until after you've told your story.
AIP ref not at hand, but I would certainly expect that once comms are established that there is no need to state who you are calling. The initial call has a few purposes I suppose:
1) Who I'm looking for (as in unit you are calling), if you've dialed the wrong digits; easier for me to say wrong number if I'm working sectors and you call for departures or approach/TWR etc., gives me an idea of where to look for the right numbers.
2) It's me over here who you just accepted (of course sometimes we take more than one at a time); bit confusing when people use the "ML Centre" when already established (usually with a request pending), who, where, don't remember taking another, oh wait he's already there.
3) It's sort of an alert to similar callsigned beasts that it's someone new calling, be careful.
Re OCTA comms ref, although I generally don't read Jepps; I'd suggest it's about history, where once upon a time in the great world formerly known as OCTA about 1 in 3 transmissions were for the benefit of the ATS officer. i.e. pilot to pilot over area freq, or 'broadcast' (all stations and the like) of intentions were much more commonplace. They do of course still occur.
Sometimes as the ATC it's still difficult to know why the call was directed at me. e.g. calls out of the blue: goes something like this (happens at least once a week):
"Melbourne Centre VFR maintaining A075"
Me {Thinking} Why are you calling?; "VFR, ML Centre, go ahead"
"ML Centre, VFR say again"
"VFR, did you require assistance or information"
"ML Centre, VFR, negative"
Me {thinking} what just happened?
Of course I have a 'legal obligation' to find out why you are calling, cause if something actually happens and I don't it's tea and bickies with the boss, a.k.a. "please explain".
PS don't broadcast 'ML Centre Bigjet203, request'; just say the request (eg Bigjet203 request CCTS on arrival ILS/RNAV-Z approach etc.), if I'm busy I'll ask you to wait (STBY/WAD); same as if you have 'propositioned the request'. We usually can't dictate the workload involved until after you've told your story.
If the documents that we rely on for this stuff were written properly then we wouldn't be having this discussion. The fact that so many people aren't exactly sure of what they're supposed to say, and many who are sure are wrong, is a good indicator that there is not adequate direction in the publications.
Where exactly does one go to find all of the radio phraseology and broadcast/reporting requirements in the AIP and Jepps? It's not all in one place. The classic example being the position report format which is tucked away in the met section of the Jepps. The MET section!
Where exactly does one go to find all of the radio phraseology and broadcast/reporting requirements in the AIP and Jepps? It's not all in one place. The classic example being the position report format which is tucked away in the met section of the Jepps. The MET section!
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PS don't broadcast 'ML Centre Bigjet203, request'; just say the request (eg Bigjet203 request CCTS on arrival ILS/RNAV-Z approach etc.),
How many times have I been asked, "XXX, Brisbane Centre, request" ?
Heaps!
The fact that so many people aren't exactly sure of what they're supposed to say, and many who are sure are wrong, is a good indicator that there is not adequate direction in the publications.
GG
To the poster who talked about the differences between Jepps and the AIP, as far as I'm aware, although the layout is different, each paragraph is word for word from the AIP except for where other Jepp publications are mentioned. For example cross references are obviously to Jepp paragraphs and anything to do with the format of approach charts and enroute charts will be Jepp specific. Other than that the words are the same.
Yep, find something that works and stick with it.
and it sure would help if, THEY STOPPED CHANGING THE F*CKING RULES
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> Director, ABC heading 150 descending to and approaching 6000
> ABC, Director, descend to 4000, RWY 34L localiser frequency 110.1, 24 track miles.
> 4000, now leaving 6000, localiser 110.1, ABC
Take out the bold bits and I'll be a happy chappy.
Take out the requirement to give LOC freq advice for parallel ops and I'll be even happier.
> ABC, Director, descend to 4000, RWY 34L localiser frequency 110.1, 24 track miles.
> 4000, now leaving 6000, localiser 110.1, ABC
Take out the bold bits and I'll be a happy chappy.
Take out the requirement to give LOC freq advice for parallel ops and I'll be even happier.
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Ivasrus,
We are required to read back the frequency and ditto the runway if it hasn’t been assigned already.
Readback Requirements (from the Jepps/AIP):
f. assigned runway, altimeter settings directed to specific aircraft, radio and radio navigation aid frequency instructions.
As for the leaving 6000,
The PIC of an aircraft receiving instruction from ATC to change level must report:
a. when the aircraft has left a level at which flight has been conducted in the course of climb, cruise or descent.
Having said that, the only time I can really see that being needed in a practical sense is when you have been cleared to climb/descend ‘when ready’. If given an intermediate level during climb or descent, nobody seems to actually report leaving when eventually cleared to a higher/lower level. .
In my experience most controllers don’t seem to want a report of leaving a level unless it’s outside radar coverage or they have issued a ‘when ready’ clearance. Anyone else got an idea on this one?
We are required to read back the frequency and ditto the runway if it hasn’t been assigned already.
Readback Requirements (from the Jepps/AIP):
f. assigned runway, altimeter settings directed to specific aircraft, radio and radio navigation aid frequency instructions.
As for the leaving 6000,
The PIC of an aircraft receiving instruction from ATC to change level must report:
a. when the aircraft has left a level at which flight has been conducted in the course of climb, cruise or descent.
Having said that, the only time I can really see that being needed in a practical sense is when you have been cleared to climb/descend ‘when ready’. If given an intermediate level during climb or descent, nobody seems to actually report leaving when eventually cleared to a higher/lower level. .
In my experience most controllers don’t seem to want a report of leaving a level unless it’s outside radar coverage or they have issued a ‘when ready’ clearance. Anyone else got an idea on this one?
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Ivasrus,
We are required to read back the frequency and ditto the runway if it hasn’t been assigned already.
Readback Requirements (from the Jepps/AIP):
f. assigned runway, altimeter settings directed to specific aircraft, radio and radio navigation aid frequency instructions.
As for the leaving 6000,
The PIC of an aircraft receiving instruction from ATC to change level must report:
a. when the aircraft has left a level at which flight has been conducted in the course of climb, cruise or descent.
Having said that, the only time I can really see that being needed in a practical sense is when you have been cleared to climb/descend ‘when ready’. If given an intermediate level during climb or descent, nobody seems to actually report leaving when eventually cleared to a higher/lower level. .
In my experience most controllers don’t seem to want a report of leaving a level unless it’s outside radar coverage or they have issued a ‘when ready’ clearance. Anyone else got an idea on this one?
We are required to read back the frequency and ditto the runway if it hasn’t been assigned already.
Readback Requirements (from the Jepps/AIP):
f. assigned runway, altimeter settings directed to specific aircraft, radio and radio navigation aid frequency instructions.
As for the leaving 6000,
The PIC of an aircraft receiving instruction from ATC to change level must report:
a. when the aircraft has left a level at which flight has been conducted in the course of climb, cruise or descent.
Having said that, the only time I can really see that being needed in a practical sense is when you have been cleared to climb/descend ‘when ready’. If given an intermediate level during climb or descent, nobody seems to actually report leaving when eventually cleared to a higher/lower level. .
In my experience most controllers don’t seem to want a report of leaving a level unless it’s outside radar coverage or they have issued a ‘when ready’ clearance. Anyone else got an idea on this one?
Regarding the LOC frequency, it isn't an instruction as per AIP/Jepp, it's simply an advice or cross-check. Splitting hairs perhaps but we don't need the readback here.
