Night Circuit Instructing
Thread Starter
Night Circuit Instructing
Hi, quick question. I've checked the CASA site and I'm trying to work out if I can teach night circuits. Im an instructor, with a MECIR but no NVFR. I know that to teach night circuits only I need 1hr night in past 12mnths and 3 T/Os and LDGs, but do I also need to meet NVFR aeronautical experience (5 hrs night nav incl one of XXX duration)? Need some guidance fairly quickly if possible!
Cheers
Cap'n
Cheers
Cap'n
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: CASEY STATION
Posts: 191
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
G'Day Cap'n,
I think you answered your own question. Im not quoting from the CAO so please go easy if im incorrect, however I believe that the privileges and lims of an instrument rating are to act in command of an aircraft under the NVFR IF "you have the required aeronautical experience"!!! So without the 5 hours cross country nav experience (Dual, I believe) not only can you not instruct NVFR procedures, you cannot fly it as pilot in command either. I personally have not come across this situation but if you wish to conduct Night circuits they may have to be flight planned under an IFR plan, but visual manaeuvring?
Having said all that, ask your CFI, he is the only who who can really answer this question for you. Also the school should have appointed an instructor in charge of night training. (he has to be at least a grade 2 with 20 hours night vfr instructing, and be approved by the CFI to supervise night training).
Hope this was of some use.
Cheers
Rumbear
I think you answered your own question. Im not quoting from the CAO so please go easy if im incorrect, however I believe that the privileges and lims of an instrument rating are to act in command of an aircraft under the NVFR IF "you have the required aeronautical experience"!!! So without the 5 hours cross country nav experience (Dual, I believe) not only can you not instruct NVFR procedures, you cannot fly it as pilot in command either. I personally have not come across this situation but if you wish to conduct Night circuits they may have to be flight planned under an IFR plan, but visual manaeuvring?
Having said all that, ask your CFI, he is the only who who can really answer this question for you. Also the school should have appointed an instructor in charge of night training. (he has to be at least a grade 2 with 20 hours night vfr instructing, and be approved by the CFI to supervise night training).
Hope this was of some use.
Cheers
Rumbear
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: The Zoo
Posts: 335
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
http://www.casa.gov.au/download/orders/cao40/400201.pdf
14.1(a) Private and aerial work flights under night V.F.R. procedures provided
the pilot meets the aeronautical and recent experience requirements
applicable to a night V.F.R. endorsement.
http://www.casa.gov.au/download/orders/cao40/400202.pdf
Appendix 1 - long read, go check for yourself and see whether you meet the aeronaticaul and recent experience requirements.
14.1(a) Private and aerial work flights under night V.F.R. procedures provided
the pilot meets the aeronautical and recent experience requirements
applicable to a night V.F.R. endorsement.
http://www.casa.gov.au/download/orders/cao40/400202.pdf
Appendix 1 - long read, go check for yourself and see whether you meet the aeronaticaul and recent experience requirements.
The legal requirements are all here but remember NVFR is closer to IFR than VFR flying. It's only meant to get you away before first light or home after last light, not go trekking across the countryside at night in a SE. I'd recommend you run your briefs through the CFI or a senior instructor.
I know of a couple of ATOs who absolutely hate testing NVFR.
There's nothing like the student who lands halfway down the runway, takes the rest of the distance to get the flaps up and retrim and then climbs out at Vy+15kts while being unable to see the trees at the end of the runway.
(Rwys 05/23 at Caloundra a good example)
I know of a couple of ATOs who absolutely hate testing NVFR.
There's nothing like the student who lands halfway down the runway, takes the rest of the distance to get the flaps up and retrim and then climbs out at Vy+15kts while being unable to see the trees at the end of the runway.
"Was that a bat that just went under us?"
"No it was a tree, GET AWAY FROM THE GROUND!"
"No it was a tree, GET AWAY FROM THE GROUND!"
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: The Zoo
Posts: 335
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I know of a couple of ATOs who absolutely hate testing NVFR.
There's nothing like the student who lands halfway down the runway, takes the rest of the distance to get the flaps up and retrim and then climbs out at Vy+15kts while being unable to see the trees at the end of the runway.
There's nothing like the student who lands halfway down the runway, takes the rest of the distance to get the flaps up and retrim and then climbs out at Vy+15kts while being unable to see the trees at the end of the runway.
Also raises the question, if they are half way down the runway when they land, where was the little voice in their head (since it should be there by now if they're doing a NVFR) or next to them (if the little voice in their head has gone to sleep... it is night after all) "Attitude, Aiming point, Airspeed... Attitude, Aiming point, Airspeed" after all if you're at the same point with the same amount of energy you're going to touchdown at the same point?
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 1,569
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
NVFR is a great stepping stone towards IFR. As mentioned elsewhere here it's almost IFR anyway.
'kalavo' made good ref to the regs, that ought to answer yr question.
I was once taught by IP, CASA ATO (wasn't CASA way back then & those that know those initials will know whom I refering to here) he mentioned that never start decent into an aerodrome at night (esspecially one in a built up area) 'till you can almost glide to it rather than use a powered decent. Powerful words, used them all the time whilst I was dumb enough to fly SE NVFR!
CW
'kalavo' made good ref to the regs, that ought to answer yr question.
I was once taught by IP, CASA ATO (wasn't CASA way back then & those that know those initials will know whom I refering to here) he mentioned that never start decent into an aerodrome at night (esspecially one in a built up area) 'till you can almost glide to it rather than use a powered decent. Powerful words, used them all the time whilst I was dumb enough to fly SE NVFR!
CW
Refer to CAR (1988) 174C (1)(c) where a person who is permitted under Part 5 to fly in the traffic pattern at night, appears to be given that authority.
Part 5.107 (3) shows some detail on what a CPL holder is permitted to do at night without holding a night VFR rating. However it appears to be designed for night currency in that no passengers are permitted. Similar rules apply for PPL and ATPL licence holders. There may be other areas that I have not looked at, due to the late hour.
Blackburn
Part 5.107 (3) shows some detail on what a CPL holder is permitted to do at night without holding a night VFR rating. However it appears to be designed for night currency in that no passengers are permitted. Similar rules apply for PPL and ATPL licence holders. There may be other areas that I have not looked at, due to the late hour.
Blackburn
Having been an instructor and instructed many hundred nights hours with never having held a NVFR rating, i'm positive that its legal...........as long as you meet the experience requirements to operate under the NVFR, and then meet the recency requirements. The CAO's clearly state that the holder of an IR may exercise the privelages of a NVFR rating as long the holder satisfys the aeronautical and recency experience of CAO 42.2.2 Appendix 1.
Anyway hope that helps, and if your really not sure..........then contact CASA and get it from the horses mouth!
Cheers
Anyway hope that helps, and if your really not sure..........then contact CASA and get it from the horses mouth!
Cheers
Kalavo and Dog One... DUH!
The illustration was that initial circuits aren't all fun and games.
If you have your NVFR, Kalavo, you should know there are a lot of extra factors to night work, such as using higher approach speeds to allow for low level windshear (more prevalent at night with less convection near the ground), therefore you will not be carrying the same energy for a start.
Please don't tell me you're the ATO with the massive balls who's never had a student do something stupid.
Dog One, that is why the instructor is there. (Also to remind them to stop looking at the pretty lights everywhere else.)
The point of this was that teaching NVFR is not as simple as initial circuits. If some people aren't aware of this/haven't had any experience instructing NVFR and decide it might be a good time to score some ego points, that's their petty issue.
Next lesson kiddies, sarcasm 101.
The illustration was that initial circuits aren't all fun and games.
If you have your NVFR, Kalavo, you should know there are a lot of extra factors to night work, such as using higher approach speeds to allow for low level windshear (more prevalent at night with less convection near the ground), therefore you will not be carrying the same energy for a start.
Please don't tell me you're the ATO with the massive balls who's never had a student do something stupid.
Dog One, that is why the instructor is there. (Also to remind them to stop looking at the pretty lights everywhere else.)
The point of this was that teaching NVFR is not as simple as initial circuits. If some people aren't aware of this/haven't had any experience instructing NVFR and decide it might be a good time to score some ego points, that's their petty issue.
Next lesson kiddies, sarcasm 101.
MakeithappenCaptain, you have some very strange ideas, high appraoch speeds because to allow for low level windshear due to less convection. Son windshear is something you haven't experienced yet!!!!
With a fair few night hours in the logbook I use the same approach speeds I use in daylight whether flying a C172 or a Metro, the only time airspeed is increased for strong gusty winds.
I would like to see you operate into a short strip at night time.
Something about stabilised approach was taught when I was doing NVFR and IFR rating.
Dog One is spot on with the comment "Go Around"
With a fair few night hours in the logbook I use the same approach speeds I use in daylight whether flying a C172 or a Metro, the only time airspeed is increased for strong gusty winds.
I would like to see you operate into a short strip at night time.
Something about stabilised approach was taught when I was doing NVFR and IFR rating.
Dog One is spot on with the comment "Go Around"
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: OZ
Posts: 143
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Have to agree with you 'stationair8', not too sure why anyone would need extra speed on appr for anything else other than adding half the gust factor in windy conditions, that's basic airmanship, the rest is a belief only held by those ill-informed. In fact we all know that at night the illusions are at times very concerning where speed is concerned. Going faster only adds to that problem. Obviously there are other variables to app speeds such as abnormal ops, flapless for Eg. but that's getting beyond the scope of the thread here anyway I feel. Like said, it's all about a stab appr.
F
F
Make it happen captain, Just where is it written that the NVFR is only meant to get you away before first light or get you home just after last light other than in the minds of some chief pilots or CFI's ? I f that was the case why then do the regs currency requirements state you must do at least one hour cross country a year to remain current?
I assume your concern is engine failure at night while ignoring all the other causes of a potential air crash like poor weather, pilot error or disability.
If you look at the satistics there are very few NVFR fatalities. I guess due to most pilots becoming more experianced by the time they progress to night flying and the more stringent weather requirements to allow night flight with lowest safe etc. I remember a discussion I had with the chief pilot of Hazeltons ( remember them) many years ago who stated that there should be no such thing as NVFR. Full IFR or day VFR or nothing in his opinion. Yet this stupid man ( and I use the term loosely ) was quiet happy to have single pilot IFR, many of who were quiet young and inexperianced themselves, flying up to 9 passengers on RPT services around in all sorts of weather like snow,sleet etc.
Now I ask you, if the pilot became incapacitated for whatever reason or made a major approach error in IMC those passengers were dead. There is no way a passenger with no flying experiance is going to land that Chieftian. In a NVFR aircraft however while the odds are not great a passenger of a say C172 would have a fighting chance of survival purely because they can see out the window and it is a basic aircraft to fly. With a bit of help over the radio they are a chance. So if NVFR is such a dangerous activity single pilot IFR is even more so and therefore should be banned. In doing so killing off GA and who wants that?
I assume your concern is engine failure at night while ignoring all the other causes of a potential air crash like poor weather, pilot error or disability.
If you look at the satistics there are very few NVFR fatalities. I guess due to most pilots becoming more experianced by the time they progress to night flying and the more stringent weather requirements to allow night flight with lowest safe etc. I remember a discussion I had with the chief pilot of Hazeltons ( remember them) many years ago who stated that there should be no such thing as NVFR. Full IFR or day VFR or nothing in his opinion. Yet this stupid man ( and I use the term loosely ) was quiet happy to have single pilot IFR, many of who were quiet young and inexperianced themselves, flying up to 9 passengers on RPT services around in all sorts of weather like snow,sleet etc.
Now I ask you, if the pilot became incapacitated for whatever reason or made a major approach error in IMC those passengers were dead. There is no way a passenger with no flying experiance is going to land that Chieftian. In a NVFR aircraft however while the odds are not great a passenger of a say C172 would have a fighting chance of survival purely because they can see out the window and it is a basic aircraft to fly. With a bit of help over the radio they are a chance. So if NVFR is such a dangerous activity single pilot IFR is even more so and therefore should be banned. In doing so killing off GA and who wants that?
Stationair and all others who think everyone is as good as they think they are:
I'd rather have my students safer than sorry while they're learning anyday. Is that really such a bad thing? You really think most people going for their NVFR have that much experience? Think again, sonshine.
At least until they have some experience, 200' off the ground with reduced visual reference is not the place to be stalling.
Go fly into Cooktown and then tell me I don't know about windshear,
nut. King Island? PD knows me. Go ask him, dropkick.
As for Go arounds...
For the hard of hearing, slow, stupid or all of the aformentioned, the statement you were all jumping on with such glee,
was s a r c a s m. New word for the day, kiddies. You may need to get someone to show you how to use a dictionary (sorry, big book that explains the meaning of words).
Mostlytossas. I didn't say it was written anywhere. There are so few SE night accidents because most people have the good sense not to do at night what is usually done during the day.
Engine failure in flight (by night);
1) Adopt best glide speed.
2) Immediate actions.
3) Decide if you want to turn on the landing light and see where you're going to die.
I'll do my NVFR ME where possible, thanks.
Australia is the only country that has a NVFR.
It used to be a Class 4 CIR but too many dopes thought that meant they could fly into cloud with it. The fact that you do about 4 times the training for IFR as NVFR means, yes, you should be a safer pilot (theoretically, just ask JFk Jr) and with the protection offered by IFR (read as separation and traffic information), I'd rather fly there too. (Still a stupid idea?) VFR is just so you can look at the view, really. As for pilot incapacitation, if that was really a valid argument there would be no single pilot ops. This really is getting desperate/pathetic.
Sick of this shit. Try offering some constructive comments for a change, people. This forum is supposed to provide help people asking questions, not ridicule to people who take the time to respond. Outta here.
I'd rather have my students safer than sorry while they're learning anyday. Is that really such a bad thing? You really think most people going for their NVFR have that much experience? Think again, sonshine.
At least until they have some experience, 200' off the ground with reduced visual reference is not the place to be stalling.
Go fly into Cooktown and then tell me I don't know about windshear,
nut. King Island? PD knows me. Go ask him, dropkick.As for Go arounds...
There's nothing like the student who lands halfway down the runway, takes the rest of the distance to get the flaps up and retrim and then climbs out at Vy+15kts while being unable to see the trees at the end of the runway.
was s a r c a s m. New word for the day, kiddies. You may need to get someone to show you how to use a dictionary (sorry, big book that explains the meaning of words).
Mostlytossas. I didn't say it was written anywhere. There are so few SE night accidents because most people have the good sense not to do at night what is usually done during the day.
Engine failure in flight (by night);
1) Adopt best glide speed.
2) Immediate actions.
3) Decide if you want to turn on the landing light and see where you're going to die.
I'll do my NVFR ME where possible, thanks.
Australia is the only country that has a NVFR.
It used to be a Class 4 CIR but too many dopes thought that meant they could fly into cloud with it. The fact that you do about 4 times the training for IFR as NVFR means, yes, you should be a safer pilot (theoretically, just ask JFk Jr) and with the protection offered by IFR (read as separation and traffic information), I'd rather fly there too. (Still a stupid idea?) VFR is just so you can look at the view, really. As for pilot incapacitation, if that was really a valid argument there would be no single pilot ops. This really is getting desperate/pathetic.
Sick of this shi
t. Try offering some constructive comments for a change, people. This forum is supposed to provide help people asking questions, not ridicule to people who take the time to respond. Outta here.
Being a professional flying instructor is about teaching airmanship and to pass on some of that knowledge to your student.
Who is PD a mate of facebook?
Yes i did hold the Class 4 rating and when DCA did my flight test the guy went through the reasoning behind the development of the rating and the gentlemen himself had one of the first one issued at time, so I am sure he would have a little bit more knowledge than you.
In regards to this forum your the only making a dick of yourself!!!
Who is PD a mate of facebook?
Yes i did hold the Class 4 rating and when DCA did my flight test the guy went through the reasoning behind the development of the rating and the gentlemen himself had one of the first one issued at time, so I am sure he would have a little bit more knowledge than you.
In regards to this forum your the only making a dick of yourself!!!
Thread Starter
Cheers for the replies everyone. I found this in the CAAPs about NVFR, and couldn't find anything anywhere to contradict it:
As far as I can figure, night circuits (even the 5 hours at night for issue of CIR) are a NVFR operation, so I'm fairly sure I can't do them without the AERONAUTICAL experience (the 10 hours dual incl. 5 hours nvfr dual nav). Will email CASA anyway and find out their stance on the issue. Would have been real nice to have a section under instructor rating in CAO regarding this 
Arrr
4.4 NVFR using an instrument rating
4.4.1 The holder of a command grade of instrument rating may
conduct NVFR flights as PIC without holding a NVFR Rating,
provided he or she meets all the night flying experience
requirements for the issue of a NVFR Rating, including the
NVFR cross country requirements. A NVFR rating flight test is
not required.
4.4.1 The holder of a command grade of instrument rating may
conduct NVFR flights as PIC without holding a NVFR Rating,
provided he or she meets all the night flying experience
requirements for the issue of a NVFR Rating, including the
NVFR cross country requirements. A NVFR rating flight test is
not required.
Arrr
If you really fly into King Island then you will know who PD is.
As for your thoughts on approach speeds, I'm sure you know much better than just about every approved training organisation in the country now, don't you?
So enlighten me, what are your thoughts on why they went to the NVFR from a class 4, seeing you keep such enlightened company?
Make yourself useful for a change.
If you can't say something constructive, shut the up.
As for your thoughts on approach speeds, I'm sure you know much better than just about every approved training organisation in the country now, don't you?
So enlighten me, what are your thoughts on why they went to the NVFR from a class 4, seeing you keep such enlightened company?
Make yourself useful for a change.
If you can't say something constructive, shut the
up.
Capn Arr
CAO 40.1.7
Either will do, but be aware NVFR is about visual navigation by night.
Constructive contribution. Not that hard now, is it?
CAO 40.1.7
4.1.1 For the purposes of subparagraph 4.1 (f), an applicant for a flight instructor
(aeroplane) rating grade 3 must hold:
(a) a commercial pilot (aeroplane) licence or an air transport pilot (aeroplane)
licence; and
(b) an aeroplane night V.F.R. rating or a command (aeroplane) instrument
rating.
(aeroplane) rating grade 3 must hold:
(a) a commercial pilot (aeroplane) licence or an air transport pilot (aeroplane)
licence; and
(b) an aeroplane night V.F.R. rating or a command (aeroplane) instrument
rating.
Constructive contribution. Not that hard now, is it?
Thread Starter
Cheers other Capn.
Yeah Ive seen that, but I'm more concerned about whether I can actually TEACH at night. I can't find anything that says I can do it, so I guess I can't. Although you are right, it is perfectly legal to be an instructor with CIR only.
Yeah Ive seen that, but I'm more concerned about whether I can actually TEACH at night. I can't find anything that says I can do it, so I guess I can't. Although you are right, it is perfectly legal to be an instructor with CIR only.