Commands for pilots who join Rex with < 500 Multi

[Wing Root]

I would like someone out there to clear this up for me and the rest of us who keep reading that unless you have 500 multi command when you join Rex (and similar) you'll be a career F/O.

Now at first I thought "Qantas don't have this problem so why would Rex?" But of course I'd forgotten since the SAAB has less than 38 seats it comes under CAO 82.3 Conditions on AOCs authorising RPT in other than high capacity aircraft.

That is where you'll find this 500 hour requirement (specifically in Appendix 4.) But it actually states 500 hours IFR command OR ICUS. So what's stopping Rex from doing what countless other operators do both here and around the world and have F/Os log, at least in part, ICUS hours from the right hand seat? Clearly this MUST happen to a degree as another minimum in appendix 4 is 50 hours CMD or ICUS ON TYPE. Obviously Rex F/Os are logging at least 50 hours of ICUS before command. Problem solved... or at least I thought.

This is where it gets a little hazy because I've been unable to find written evidence of this BUT I am told by Rex pilots that while Rex can have F/Os log ICUS time CASA have imposed a limit of 150 hours that may count toward the minimum for command. This is why the entry minimum was 350 multi command until recently.

So I guess my question at the end of all this is ... Has that changed?

[ga_trojan]

Given the lengthy list of exemptions CASA hand out to their opposition I would suggest that would be a way to get around it.

[Islander Jock]

I know of someone who has gone to a regional operator with a bare-ass minimum CPL and MECIR. Was promised ICUS etc etc but after more than a year does not have a single 0.1hr in his log book under the ME COMD column.

[KRUSTY 34]

I would imagine for an F/O to have his sectors signed off as ICUS, it would have to be done by the Captain of that particular flight. After all it is he/she that is taking responsibility for sharing command.

If the Captain were to be a check and or trainer, this should present no problem. If the Captain were an ordinary line Captain, then this may be a different story. After all it is he/she that will take responsibility for the candidates performance.

In the coming year, REX will find itself desperately short of all Captains, not just check and trainers. The notion of low time pilots gaining ICUS during normal line operations may become just a tad academic!

[Gear Down & Welded]

WR, last time I checked the -100 and -200 Dash8's have 36 seats, so thus still LC RPT, The -300 and -400 would be HC being 50 and 72 seats respectively. So assuming you were given a CMD with <500 multi cmd you would be restricted to the -300 and -400... ignoring any exemptions that they would likely have.

On a different note, anyone know if QFLink Trainees have any command prospects?? Or are they going to be career FO's too??

[Keg]

So assuming you were given a CMD with <500 multi cmd you would be restricted to the -300 and -400...

....until they build up the command hours on the 300 and 400 to have more than the min requirements. After that they can fly whatever they want!

[nig&nog]

if you can get hold of it, try and get a copy of impulse/jetstar om-1 manual which if I remeber correctly has a section relating to having a command endorsement and then being able to log ICUS from right hand seat as required to obtain the left seat. there were some restrictions but it was possible,

nog not nig

[Gear Down & Welded]

n&n... thanks I've contacts there, I'll see if I can get a squiz!

[Wing Root]

Thanks for the replies all.

I guess the consensus is while it may be possible to get a command, from a practical point of view with the lack of training captains and captains in general at most of the regionals, you are going to have a long wait to log ICUS.

[alexthepilot]

hey guys just been doing lil bit of research, correct me if im wrong but im under the impression that for high capacity RPT aircraft operations to get a command you need an ATPL. non of this 500 multi stuff and in so to get an atpl u need 250 command as part of it which i think around half can be logged as ICUS from Right Seat and it doesnt have to be a check training in left seat. this correct???

[Capt Wally]

Boy it's a whole new world out there. Once upon a time no company would pee on you if you where on fire with less than 500 cmd even to fly a beat up old PA31!

Sometimes I wish I was young again so I could be told you are lucky these days, but then again at the other end of the age scale it's all about comfort & the 'kiss' method


CW

[wrongwayaround]

I've been involved in airline check and training for decades now.

I can safely say that 500 hours in Command of a partenavia DOES NOT change the way, or has no bearing on the way you operate a SAAB340, a DASH 8, a B737... B747..... A330... and the list goes on.

[Led Zep]

Aren't the -100 and -200 Dash 8s high cap, but under some anomaly can be operated on low cap AOCs if configured with less than 40 seats?

[wesky]

Off track a little...

For those questioning how the Rex cadet scheme will work in the way of getting command, read a few posts up.

Chris Hine explained all of the above to me pretty much word for word. He also went on about their "PICUS" program which is what they have in place to ensure left hand seats are filled by those int he RH seat. This program is one setup and approved by CASA to allow a waiver of the 'usual' MEC CAO requirement.

So.... all in all, there is some method to the madness. When you think about it, what he hell is the point of driving 100's of low time cadets through to the RH seat if they have no heads to sit in the LH seat to ensure the RH is operated correctly? I might be shooting myself in the foot here, but wouldnt it be cheaper, salary speaking, to utilise these/us kids that will be stuck there for 5 years.... See, management have it all sorted. Everybody wins in some way... You get command after 2 years but the catch is, you get paid less than a high performing call centre worker. But hey! its a way in!

[Icarus53]

Don't you need a Command endorsement to act ICUS???

I see no reason why you can't log ICUS for sectors flown from RHS (regardless of who the Capt is), but if you only hold a Co-pilot endorsement, then you can't be "in command" whether under supervision or otherwise.

Do Rex FOs hold a Comd endorsement? I know QL FOs only have co-pilot.

The fact I consider the concept of co-pilot time/endorsements to be a hangover from years past made irrelevant by the concept of PF/PNF is besides the point.

[Hasselhof]

I know QL FOs only have co-pilot

Is this still the case since the introduction of the pay for endorsement scheme? If not then there's the answer to that one.

[Wing Root]

Rex pilots get command endorsements from the start.

[spacepodlife]

Where is the problem? With all the money that regional airline's pilot are getting these days they can easily buy their own PIC time building on a light twin at the local aeroclub!

[bushy]

ATPL?

And you need an ATPL, and the hours to get one before you can be in command of anything above 5700 kg.
Except for CASA's favourites.

[Erin Brockovich]

there is some method to the madness. When you think about it, what he hell is the point of driving 100's of low time cadets through to the RH seat if they have no heads to sit in the LH seat to ensure the RH is operated correctly?

The funny thing is that in reality they won’t! There will be no-one left to ICUS/train the cadets to ever get their commands. Going the cadet ‘path’ certainly isn’t a cheaper option for Rex. The costs that are going to be associated with training and re-training these pilots added to the cost of losing business along the way will make any savings in salaries seem like a drop in the ocean.

See, management have it all sorted.

They certainly do