Melbourne CTA - VFR Clearances
Melbourne CTA - VFR Clearances
Over the last 12 months I have been operating around Melbourne, a large part of it in CTA and have had almost no problem getting a CTA VFR clearance.. But over the last month it has become almost impossible to get a VFR clearance in CTA. I usually plan my sorties to avoid the peak times for ML traffic but it still hasn’t helped lately.
My usual routes include;
MNG – Broadford – EN @A045
MB – MEL-MNG @ A075
It seems that the problems arise when ML is on 27 Arrivals, but why cant we be threaded around the inbounds. We can give you 140 kts ground speed, 150 if really needed, carry all the good gear, GPS, ILS, etc Melbourne cant be that busy, never had a problem getting clearences through San Francisco, Los Angeles and Chicao Class B areas.
We have very specific objectives that have to be met, otherwise we have to come back again. We’re trying hard to get the students proficient with ATC communications leading into the IFR part of the course, that can only help the ATCO’s.
Additionally, I’m frequently doing MB – Sugarloaf – MNG direct. I try to stay OCTA but sometimes I really NEED higher (either turbulence or cloud) but pop up clearances are next to impossible. Putting a plan in hasn’t helped either.
Also, quite a few aircraft get pinged several times infringing CTA right on the boundary at Sugarloaf reservoir, myself included heading 340. That area is quite interesting, Rising terrain, lowish CTA floor and frequently quite powerful up or down draughts, sometimes both at the same time. With a 20 kt southerly, I have seen climb rates of 1000 ft/min at Idle power.
Any advice for planning from ATCO's would be appreciated.
My usual routes include;
MNG – Broadford – EN @A045
MB – MEL-MNG @ A075
It seems that the problems arise when ML is on 27 Arrivals, but why cant we be threaded around the inbounds. We can give you 140 kts ground speed, 150 if really needed, carry all the good gear, GPS, ILS, etc Melbourne cant be that busy, never had a problem getting clearences through San Francisco, Los Angeles and Chicao Class B areas.
We have very specific objectives that have to be met, otherwise we have to come back again. We’re trying hard to get the students proficient with ATC communications leading into the IFR part of the course, that can only help the ATCO’s.
Additionally, I’m frequently doing MB – Sugarloaf – MNG direct. I try to stay OCTA but sometimes I really NEED higher (either turbulence or cloud) but pop up clearances are next to impossible. Putting a plan in hasn’t helped either.
Also, quite a few aircraft get pinged several times infringing CTA right on the boundary at Sugarloaf reservoir, myself included heading 340. That area is quite interesting, Rising terrain, lowish CTA floor and frequently quite powerful up or down draughts, sometimes both at the same time. With a 20 kt southerly, I have seen climb rates of 1000 ft/min at Idle power.
Any advice for planning from ATCO's would be appreciated.
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nomorecatering,
I've flown similar routes out of and into YMMB and I understand the frustration. Whilst I haven't experienced the same difficulty that you've had recently, I know that they have problems with certain routes from the north.
From my experience they prefer you to track YMMB-YMML-YMNG rather than via SGSV... probably because a lot of arrivals from Melbourne come in over Coldstream and I'd suggest that it's better having you at 6000' over YMML than right in their flight path. I can remember getting a clearance DCT from YMNG to YMMB (at 4000' as well) but this when traffic was very quiet and perhaps there weren't any arrivals from the east.
As DNS has alluded to, the quandry would be better answered by a Controller, but I understand what you mean about the arbitrariness of the clearances.
I've flown similar routes out of and into YMMB and I understand the frustration. Whilst I haven't experienced the same difficulty that you've had recently, I know that they have problems with certain routes from the north.
From my experience they prefer you to track YMMB-YMML-YMNG rather than via SGSV... probably because a lot of arrivals from Melbourne come in over Coldstream and I'd suggest that it's better having you at 6000' over YMML than right in their flight path. I can remember getting a clearance DCT from YMNG to YMMB (at 4000' as well) but this when traffic was very quiet and perhaps there weren't any arrivals from the east.
As DNS has alluded to, the quandry would be better answered by a Controller, but I understand what you mean about the arbitrariness of the clearances.
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Also, quite a few aircraft get pinged several times infringing CTA right on the boundary at Sugarloaf reservoir, myself included heading 340. That area is quite interesting, Rising terrain, lowish CTA floor and frequently quite powerful up or down draughts, sometimes both at the same time. With a 20 kt southerly, I have seen climb rates of 1000 ft/min at Idle power.
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Melbourne CTA - VFR Clearances
I have given up on trying to get any clearance coming into and out of MEN years ago. Even when you put a plan in you end up most of the time getting vectored way off the direction you are wanting to go on the way out of MEN and most of the time on the return trip you get the usual remain OCTA call Yan Yean, Doncaster Etc Etc.
If anyone is getting VFR clearance on all there flights I would llike to hear the secret.
If anyone is getting VFR clearance on all there flights I would llike to hear the secret.
When you live....
And give them lots of warning - if you're coming from the north, give them 30-40-50+ minutes notice - get onto the local area frequency with ETA at (say) Mangalore and ask them to tell the flow that you'll be requesting a VFR clearance.
Works fine for me....
UTR.
PF
- then the phrase is "xyz requires 4500" and if they refuse then advise "xyz climbing 4500" and declare a PAN if needs be.
Works fine for me....
UTR.
PF
sometimes I really NEED higher
Never been into YMEN on a VFR plan, but I took the FTDK in and out last year on an IFR plan - was looked after very well. Vectored around the sky a bit but enventually lined up on the Rwy. Going out was a total non-event.
Tried the same trick into YPJT, but was stupid enough to say "FTDK visual" - with that they spat me out of the IFR system and made me play with the VFR riff-raff.
ATC: "Track via Lake Such'n Such".
FTDK: "What friggin lake? Don't you know I am on an IFR plan"?
Dr
Tried the same trick into YPJT, but was stupid enough to say "FTDK visual" - with that they spat me out of the IFR system and made me play with the VFR riff-raff.
ATC: "Track via Lake Such'n Such".
FTDK: "What friggin lake? Don't you know I am on an IFR plan"?
Dr
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hahahaha
They must have known that the VFR Riff Raff was in the right hand seat
.....making cheeky comments "that you will get spat out of the system soon"........Geez that was opening my gob too soon!
J
They must have known that the VFR Riff Raff was in the right hand seat
.....making cheeky comments "that you will get spat out of the system soon"........Geez that was opening my gob too soon!J
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Dear Dr.
At a GAAP airport, in VMC, even if you are on a IFR plan,
YOU BECOME ONE OF THE RIFF-RAFF!!!
nomorecatering
Check out the SIDs and STARs for ML on the AsA website. These have been designed to ensure separation assurance with the majority of the traffic, that being the airlines in and out of ML. For Rwy 27, the vertical block is generally occupied to at least 6000'. EN traffic adds to the workload and complexity.
The App/Dep guys do a great job and will fit you in if they can.
YOU BECOME ONE OF THE RIFF-RAFF!!!
nomorecatering
Check out the SIDs and STARs for ML on the AsA website. These have been designed to ensure separation assurance with the majority of the traffic, that being the airlines in and out of ML. For Rwy 27, the vertical block is generally occupied to at least 6000'. EN traffic adds to the workload and complexity.
The App/Dep guys do a great job and will fit you in if they can.
Last edited by Chief galah; 4th Feb 2008 at 08:55.
At a GAAP airport, in VMC, even if you are on a IFR plan,
Yes, that was my mistake. I should not have uttered the "V" word until I was ready to slum it!
Dr
Yes, that was my mistake. I should not have uttered the "V" word until I was ready to slum it!
Dr
Last edited by ForkTailedDrKiller; 4th Feb 2008 at 09:49.
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Underneath the radar is spot on. Let them know you're coming. I don't work the MNG airspace but do the other two sectors between 30 and 100nm ML. ie from the north anticlockwise round to the southeast.
Always have a plan in and call early, not at 5 nm from the cta step. Get your code, get identified, let arrivals do a bit of planning. The process often involves you calling enroute, enroute talking to ML radar and possibly flow, Radar checking with Departures/Arrivals. It all takes time. Most of the guys will do everything possible to get you through but some days it just doesn't work.
Always have a plan in and call early, not at 5 nm from the cta step. Get your code, get identified, let arrivals do a bit of planning. The process often involves you calling enroute, enroute talking to ML radar and possibly flow, Radar checking with Departures/Arrivals. It all takes time. Most of the guys will do everything possible to get you through but some days it just doesn't work.
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I think Roger means the TAC (Terminal Area Coordinator???) which is usually the flow anyway. That's the case with a VFR aircraft wanting to go over the top of YMML, that way we can let them know if it will be available.
Cheers,
NFR.
Cheers,
NFR.
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I've never been knocked back on a clearance or vectored, possibly because I always plan (if it's practical) to directly overfly Tullamarine & Essendon, eg, Albert Park to Mangalore, or perhaps Tooradin direct to Kyneton depending on where I'm going. As soon as I'm clear of airspace I change my course to the required destination. By putting myself out only a few miles I find I can save vectoring and refusal.
Of course this won't always work out, however it does seem that over-flying the big ones directly does make sequencing easier. Sugerloaf I avoid like the plague.
Of course this won't always work out, however it does seem that over-flying the big ones directly does make sequencing easier. Sugerloaf I avoid like the plague.
Interesting, wrt advance calls for clearance, what phraseology would that take? Say I was MNG-KKO-EN, would I make a call around Kilmore gap?
I hate the idea of using " expect" it almost sounds like "I demand"
AIP says-EXPECT CLEARANCE REQUEST (aircraft type) VFR (if appropriate) FOR (destination) VIA (point outside controlled airspace at which clearance will be requested) ESTIMATE (estimate at destination) AT(altitude proposed for entry to controlled airspace)
Is there a "nicer" way of putting an early request than EXPECT CLEARANCE REQUEST ?
I hate the idea of using " expect" it almost sounds like "I demand"
AIP says-EXPECT CLEARANCE REQUEST (aircraft type) VFR (if appropriate) FOR (destination) VIA (point outside controlled airspace at which clearance will be requested) ESTIMATE (estimate at destination) AT(altitude proposed for entry to controlled airspace)
Is there a "nicer" way of putting an early request than EXPECT CLEARANCE REQUEST ?
