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Hypothetical CA048 Question

Old 17th Jan 2008, 04:49
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Hypothetical CA048 Question

I work for a regional airline flying 750-900 hours a year and I work 40 hours a week duty time. On my days off I wish to go and fly a RAA registered aircraft, do I log it under CAO48 as duty time or is none of CASA business? Do I have to advise the Chief Pilot that I will be flying an RAA aircraft on my days off?
Over to the PPRuNe community.
Stationair8 is offline  
Old 17th Jan 2008, 05:56
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In NZ the only time that goes into the 'flight & duty time' category is the time spent at work -available 'for hire or reward'. I can't imagine it being too different in Oz. Whenever I flew recreationally -on my days off or when I had signed off at work, it for sure did NOT go anywhere near my flight & duty time hours. Recreational flying time is just that: what you do with your own time is no concern of anyone but yourself.
kiwiblue is offline  
Old 17th Jan 2008, 05:57
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I'm in a similar situation, and CASA insists that I log my duty cycle and flight time when private flying. This is due to a company extension on our duty hours.

Had it not been for that I would be disregarding the duty and just logging the hours.

Check through your company docs.
youngmic is offline  
Old 17th Jan 2008, 06:19
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In any instance your company owns whatever your max flying hours are.

You better seek approval from your chief pilot before committing to outside flying.
Hugh Jarse is offline  
Old 17th Jan 2008, 06:25
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Most Company Ops Manuals require company Pilots to log Flight and Duties of a private nature to be included on ones workplace Flight and Duties.

Flight Time accrued on any aircraft that can be logged, must be logged in your appropriate log book, 28 and 356 day totals etc etc.

Where this gets quite inconsistent is with "Duty Time", in CAO 48 and the exemption to CAO 48, "Duty Time" is described in the definitions section of the order/approval as ( loosely worded ), "Hours the Company requires you to be at work, doing the Pilot thing or associated tasks ".

For example, going out hiring a C172 to fly over to Rotto to sip Latte's at Dome and eat greasy fish and chips with someone you're trying to tap, does not quantify as time the company requires you to do the pilot thingy, so,,,, good luck with that one. ( unless of course you are dating the sort of "ladies" youngmic would be dating, some would say that to be a duty ).

Last edited by Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower; 17th Jan 2008 at 08:39.
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Old 17th Jan 2008, 06:34
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Isn't private flying exactly that, be it RA or not? Especially that RA aircraft are "registered / recognised" aircraft and the hours count towards GA...
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Old 17th Jan 2008, 09:02
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I was under the impression that if you held a commercial license or above and engaged in any type of commercial operations, then you have to log duty for any type of operation including private operations. This is why all ops manuals outline the requirement to log even private operations on the company flight and duty records and why the CP has to grant approval for those flights to take place. Have a look at the "Application and Responsibility" in 48.0
Harry Cooper is offline  
Old 18th Jan 2008, 01:02
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Everyone I've spoken to has to get approval from their employer to do any outside flying, as the employer tends to "own" your fatigue limits. Most of them don't have a problem with some outside flying, unless you're maxing out your fatigue limits just with your work, but I'm fairly sure any flying counts towards it.
Cap'n Arrr is offline  
Old 18th Jan 2008, 22:46
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My companies ops manual says that any private flying is logged as flight time but not as duty time. It doesn't say if it's counted towards the continuous days flying though....

Harry Cooper - a CPL only needs to start logging flight & duty times from the first day they undertake a flight 'for hire or reward' - in my case I waited almost a year in between (was meat bombing instead - all private & no CAO48 to worry about).


PS What happens if you get busted? I've noticed a couple of operators round my way who happily fly 7 days a week and are on duty from 9 til 5 daily...
UnderneathTheRadar is offline  
Old 16th Sep 2011, 05:38
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Training RA-AUS and CASA

If I am paid training both CASA and RA-AUS for different operators do the hours cross over or remain separate? I.E. 900 hours all up or each.
J_I_Logan is offline  
Old 16th Sep 2011, 07:04
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Hypothetically then read CAO 48.0 Section 1.3

Calculations of flight and duty time limitations made under the provisions of section 48.1 shall take into account any flight and duty time performed in the course of private operations.
ControlLock is offline  
Old 16th Sep 2011, 08:10
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This is one area (or rather, another area) where the Aero Clubs etc have a serious commercial advantage over mixed VH/RAAus schools.

There are no limits on RAAus flight/duty but if you are employed VH as well the RAAus hours (both flight AND duty) count (regardless of what your Ops manual says... and I bet your Ops manual says something to the effect of "to the extent of any inconsistency between this manual and the Regs or CAOs, the legislation will have precedence")

Its a pity and a pain in the arse for those of us who like to indulge in their hobby on the weekend!
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Old 16th Sep 2011, 21:25
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So a weekend private flight of 6 hours counts but you can drive all weekend and that doesn't?
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Old 16th Sep 2011, 23:56
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Calculations of flight and duty time limitations made under the provisions of section 48.1 shall take into account any flight and duty time performed in the course of private operations.
The definition of "duty time" per the CARs and CAOs is very clear. "tour of duty means the period between the time a flight crew member commences any duties associated with his or her employment ....". In my personal situation, virtually all of my private flying has nought to do with my employment so the appropriate duty time is NIL. i.e. I comply with the law to record that duty time however it is zero per the law.

As for RAA, I don't see where they are exempt from flight and duty time limitations - can anyone point me to that please?
djpil is offline  
Old 17th Sep 2011, 01:14
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I didn't even think to look at it that way - in the course of their employment.

So flying the kids around - private operation, not in the course of employment - not counted as "duty".

Positioning the empty aeroplane - private operation, in the course of employment - counts.

Horatio Leafblower is offline  
Old 17th Sep 2011, 07:47
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just posting a link to a torrent file I found that contains two CAO48 flowcharts.


I have downloaded it so if you use a torrent downloader (eg Utorrent) be patient as I am online maybe 3 times a week and can seed it for you when I am home.
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Old 17th Sep 2011, 10:11
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Not as straightforward as "in the course of their employment" - it is "associated with his or her employment".
CASA is pushing the line that all private flying is so associated and offer an AATA ruling which seems to me does not support their view and does appear to be a sensible interpretation of the rule.
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Old 18th Sep 2011, 14:50
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I believe from my reading the CAR 5.55 and the CAO 48, you can fly as much as you like on private operations.

However, you must take into account any flight and duty time performed on private operations ( as it may reduce the flight time available to your employer or cause you to exceed the limitations imposed by CAO 48.1.

CASA appears to be relying on a ruling in WA to say that any private flying conducted after a period of employed flight and duty shall have the same limits as imposed by for 48.1, i.e. 8hrsFT/11Hrs duty.

I believe this is an incorrect interpretation of the CAR and CAO in that there is no limitations on private flight or duty occurring after a period of duty for which CAO 48.1 has limitations. CASA have not given any directions for any limitations on private flying as allowed by CAR 5.55. CASA have for Chtr, AWK and RPT via CAO 48.1

However, you may not be able to be rostered the next day as you may not meet the rest period on the ground nor have available flight hours to remain below the 7, 30 or 365 day limitation or duty hours to remain below the fortnight duty limit.

If you fly to work, that duty and flight time will reduce the amount of flight and duty time available to your employer.

take into account any flight and duty time performed on private operations
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Old 19th Sep 2011, 05:45
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So I can ferry an aircraft from DN to BNE (10 hours), arrive at 10:30 pm that night, (PVT ops), rock up to work at 6:30 the next morning and not have to consider duty limitations AT ALL???????


1.3 The holder of a pilot licence other than a private pilot licence who engages in aerial work, charter, or regular public transport operations, shall be subject to the flight and duty time limitations specified by CASA in section 48.1 of this Part. Calculations of flight and duty time limitations made under the provisions of section 48.1 shall take into account any flight and duty time performed in the course of private operations.

An ops manual cannot degrade the limitations of the CAO without specific permission from CASA (ie dispensations).

And as for the question about whether 900 hrs applies to either RA or GA (ie 900 hrs each??), yeah.......
You go ahead, fly that and just tell CASA someone on PPRuNe told you it was OK.

Last edited by MakeItHappenCaptain; 19th Sep 2011 at 06:03.
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