RAAF "Real Top Guns"
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The term "Topgun" is a much overused and abused term. The only people who can rightly call themselves "Topguns" are those who have served with the US Navy's Training and Standardisation Department of the Naval Strike and Air Warfare Centre.
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Originally Posted by ForkTailedDrKiller
"FTDK??"
Hempy, are you looking for some sort of indication as to how much of a fat c**t I am?
Dr
Hempy, are you looking for some sort of indication as to how much of a fat c**t I am?
Dr
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Since Hempy has thrown us down the slippery slide, this is good for a laugh! 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHklGtW3rwU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHklGtW3rwU
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Back on thread topic... Just wondering how many people are actually watching this? I reckon it would be interesting for those interested in an airforce career but in terms of entertainment is it any good???
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I reckon it would be interesting for those interested in an airforce career but in terms of entertainment is it any good???
P-A-F correctly outlines terminology facts above.
"Yeee Hah Jester's dead"
Nunc est bibendum
Perhaps Milt's question should have been something like:
"Who are the current RAF, USAF and RAAF Top Guns(E)?"
(For those that aren't aware, the (E) normally means 'equivalent'. Most often it's utilised when talking about tri-service positions and equivalent ranks).
"Who are the current RAF, USAF and RAAF Top Guns(E)?"
(For those that aren't aware, the (E) normally means 'equivalent'. Most often it's utilised when talking about tri-service positions and equivalent ranks).
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In business they call it "brand recognition"... what's your brand?
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Top Gun is the nickname of the 'program' not a person...United States Navy Strike Fighter Tactics Instructor (formerly United States Navy Fighter Weapons School) program. Which I suppose is similar to the USAF's Fighter Weapons School, the Marine Corps' Marine Aviation & Weapons Tactics Squadron - One, The Canadian Fighter Weapons Instructor Course, The RAF's Qualified Weapons Instructor etc.
Question: was the last RAAF fighter aircraft to shoot down an enemy's fighter aircraft in Korea in the 50s (Meteors vs Mig15s)? I'm trying to find out but can't confirm.
Question: was the last RAAF fighter aircraft to shoot down an enemy's fighter aircraft in Korea in the 50s (Meteors vs Mig15s)? I'm trying to find out but can't confirm.
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Top Guns and Categories Fighter Pilots
People!
To set the record straight, befoe the film "Top Gun" no such desciption of those qualified as high grade fighter pilots exsited in Australia. There is still no such Australian descriptor.
While I haven't been in the RAAF for some time, having spent 18 years in various roles, including most on fighter types, the qualifications in the RAAF were graded as Categorys E;D;C;B;A and "CategoryA Select."
When a new pilot was posted to an operational squadron, unless he had some fighter experience, or in the case of other pilot roles e.g.Maritme, Transports etc; he entered at the Cat E level. At that level he continued his training, mostly flew in the Number 2 formation position until he gained the necessary skills for upgrading within the role.
Progression came not only through rank but ability . Next step in the formation was as Number 4, then 3, and when trained, esed into the lead postion and was given structrued and deeply supervised Lead roles.
In the meantime all weapons scores were recorded throughout and further Catergory progression came through the categories until those that made it were catergorised at the "Catergory A Select" level.
I personally only know of three people who achieved that at Squadron Level but I would expect there are others.
Note I am only referencing Squadron Level. Some, not many, were posted to become Fighter Combat Instructiors (FCI's) and those pilots were reposted back to operational units to continue as an FCI, supervising the training of other fighter pilots.
So where does that leave the term "Top Gun"? I suggest with Tom Cruise and those who who wish to play the Walty Mitty game of "Imaginitis.
By the way. ........Milt reached the highest pinnacle of fighter flying. He actually went to war and is a world respected gratdute of the EPTS.......for those unfamilair...........the UK Empire Test Pilot School.
I shall now break left, select guns from missiles and wait for the inevitable "Triple A"
Gunshy67 for a reason!!!
To set the record straight, befoe the film "Top Gun" no such desciption of those qualified as high grade fighter pilots exsited in Australia. There is still no such Australian descriptor.
While I haven't been in the RAAF for some time, having spent 18 years in various roles, including most on fighter types, the qualifications in the RAAF were graded as Categorys E;D;C;B;A and "CategoryA Select."
When a new pilot was posted to an operational squadron, unless he had some fighter experience, or in the case of other pilot roles e.g.Maritme, Transports etc; he entered at the Cat E level. At that level he continued his training, mostly flew in the Number 2 formation position until he gained the necessary skills for upgrading within the role.
Progression came not only through rank but ability . Next step in the formation was as Number 4, then 3, and when trained, esed into the lead postion and was given structrued and deeply supervised Lead roles.
In the meantime all weapons scores were recorded throughout and further Catergory progression came through the categories until those that made it were catergorised at the "Catergory A Select" level.
I personally only know of three people who achieved that at Squadron Level but I would expect there are others.
Note I am only referencing Squadron Level. Some, not many, were posted to become Fighter Combat Instructiors (FCI's) and those pilots were reposted back to operational units to continue as an FCI, supervising the training of other fighter pilots.
So where does that leave the term "Top Gun"? I suggest with Tom Cruise and those who who wish to play the Walty Mitty game of "Imaginitis.
By the way. ........Milt reached the highest pinnacle of fighter flying. He actually went to war and is a world respected gratdute of the EPTS.......for those unfamilair...........the UK Empire Test Pilot School.
I shall now break left, select guns from missiles and wait for the inevitable "Triple A"
Gunshy67 for a reason!!!
Silly Old Git
Many moons ago a gaggle of Winjeels were operating in the Rockhampton area on exercise.
Now most fighter jocks love deadly call signs Like "Falcon Thunder" and " Death Ray 666 " and "Blackadder Top Gun".
So the Winjeel mob not to be outdone used the call sign "Potato flight"
When checking in with Rocky flt service they went...
"One potato" ...."Two potato"..."Three potato"........."Four !"
Now most fighter jocks love deadly call signs Like "Falcon Thunder" and " Death Ray 666 " and "Blackadder Top Gun".
So the Winjeel mob not to be outdone used the call sign "Potato flight"
When checking in with Rocky flt service they went...
"One potato" ...."Two potato"..."Three potato"........."Four !"
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Tinpins.
Love it.
It reminds me of a lady Fight Operations Chief who had seven pilots reporting to her.
She set the outfit emails up as...Herself: snowwhite@///////.........then came snoopy, sleepy droopy etc.
Can I go "guns Safe" now......naw...I better check my 6 o'clock a little longer.
Love it.
It reminds me of a lady Fight Operations Chief who had seven pilots reporting to her.
She set the outfit emails up as...Herself: snowwhite@///////.........then came snoopy, sleepy droopy etc.
Can I go "guns Safe" now......naw...I better check my 6 o'clock a little longer.
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Reminds me of a formation of Mirages checking in with Centre a long, long time ago as something like "Adder", "Taipan", "Cobra", "Rattle", and last but not least...................................."Trouser"
I laughed so hard I nearly spilt my coffee!
I laughed so hard I nearly spilt my coffee!
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gunshy67
Thanks for putting the record straight on RAAF "Top Gun".
My small claim to any fame as a fighter pilot is for being constantly shot at in Korea and doing a lot in return. Came milliseconds away from downing a T6 which had made a threatening pass at a spotting (FAC) aircraft to which we were assigned.
Post Korea and then as a flying instructor with 22 Squadron at Schofields I was able to continue to fly Mustangs. So it was that I was entered into the RAAF's annual inter squadron Weapons Competition. The extract from memoirs brings back some interesting memories and describes what it took to win the competition. Perhaps the RAAF should reopen the competition if someone can find the McCauley Shield.
From memoirs -The next few months were spent in preparations for the annual "TOP GUN" inter Squadron competition. 22 Sqn nominated Flt Lt Max Mckay and myself as its entrants.
Max and I used those months to hone our skills at Air to Air gunnery, Air to Ground gunnery, Rocketry and Dive bombing. I became pre-occupied in also honing our equipment. I had long standing doubts about the calibration of the gyro gun-sights we were using and, in the process, studied technical manuals and sought advise from the squadron instrument fitters. This initially resulted in my selection of particular gun-sights which gave me the best results. There were, however, too many unknowns in their calibration and usage and I sought ways to reduce these unknowns.
There was a widespread acceptance by all pilots that if the gyro gunsights passed elementary pre-flight and servicing checks then it was left to the skill of each pilot to sort out the rest of the unknowns. My approach though derived from a growing belief that one ought not be unquestioning about such things, particularly if such things could in many circumstances be life threatening.
Having produced some positive results from some simple airborne tests based on accurate rate turns, I was most encouraged to pursue all the variables I could find. In air to air firing one has normally to fire at a target which has a finite crossing speed across the aiming line. This means that one has to aim ahead of the target along its direction of crossing to take account of the time taken for a round to reach the target. Range and the harmonisation point of the guns becomes critical in achieving hits on the target. The guns had a fixed harmonisation at 900 ft. The determination of this 900 feet range to target seemed to be the biggest unknown in the variables and I sought ways to solve this problem.
I set up a banner target down a road at 900 feet from a gunsight set up on a tripod. The banner was at an angle of about 30 degrees which was about the angle we would expect to open fire. This gave me a look at the relative size of the banner at the right range and indicated quite clearly that we had all been firing at too great a range. At the same time I noticed a few markings on the banner. Each banner had a round black dot almost 1 foot in diameter a little above its centre line. No one I queried knew the reason for having this dot on the banner.
It wasn't until I again read the technical manual on the gun sight that I suddenly realised the significance of the dot. The manual stated in an almost insignificant paragraph that the centre dot of light in the gunsight's moving graticule subtended an angle of 1 mil. I let out a mighty yell, "I've got it!" and was impatient to again set up the banner exactly 900 feet from the portable gunsight. Yes - the black dot on the banner appeared exactly the same size as the dot of light in the sight. As we moved to a greater range the banner dot grew smaller and visa versa. I was able to discriminate range variations plus or minus about 20 feet from the target. All those involved agreed to secrecy until after the weapons competition in December.
As soon as possible I was in the air with another Mustang towing a target and I soon confirmed that I could now accurately range on the banner. Previous firings had all been well out of range for fear of colliding with the target. Scores jumped quite dramatically from 5 to 15 per cent hits to as high as 50 per cent. Scores this high were unheard of in the RAAF.
Our firing bursts were reduced in time to allow for firings as close to the harmonisation range of 900 feet as possible. On 2 occasions my rounds hit the tow wire causing the banners to fall into the sea. One of the airmen drew a cartoon of me leaning out of the cockpit carrying a huge pair of scissors. The caption said "Cottee Cuttee".
Max and I were elated as high air to air scores would give us a considerable edge over the other would be "Top Guns." We managed to keep it all secret and the airmen became almost as enthusiastic as ourselves.
Each banner we used soon became too full of holes to be re-useable and we soon used our Squadron quota. The CO helped by using influence through the stores system. To identify who had fired which rounds through a target the tips of each round were dipped in to a special paint of particular colours. Some of this paint would come off around the edge of each hole and totals of each colour could readily be counted.
The effects on the competitors when Max and I came up with 50% plus scores were dramatic. Initial disbelief followed by claims of having been armed with more than the prescribed 240 rounds or of having used targets more than once were heard. Even the umpires were suspicious and I have some pictures of a crowd of incredulous pilots around our banners. Max's and my wry smiles did little to indicate our inner feelings of delight.
Needless to say, we won the competition by a margin which has probably never been repeated. Immediately after the competition had been well and truly won, our secret was revealed. The effect on scores for air to air firing throughout the RAAF took a giant leap. Our names as winners of the McCauley Shield were suitably engraved on that trophy which was presented to us in front of the multitude of the RAAF's best fighter pilots of the time. The presentation was made by AVM McCauley himself who was then AOC of Operational Command at Glenbrook. He didn't look too well at the time, having a big shiner of a black eye and sundry pieces of sticking plaster covering minor wounds.
A couple of days earlier he had been one of several passengers in our S51 helicopter being flown by our CO Dick Wilson. Take off was proceeding from the former bowling green at the HQ at Glenbrook. The weather was hot, so performance was marginal although there was reasonable wind across the pad. Take off was achieved and the chopper hovered in ground effect with no problem. It was not until it drifted close to the eastern edge of the former bowling green that things began to happen. Ground effect was lost from the blades over the edge and an unrecoverable roll rapidly developed. The undercarriage hit the edge and the machine rolled down the hill in a frenzy of beating blades. A lot of cuts and bruises to its occupants and an abrupt end to my helicopter conversion.
It was during the weapons competition that another minor competition developed. The hard-standing in the centre of the airfield was where all of the competition aircraft were parked, serviced, refuelled and rearmed. We pilots found that the requirements of the flying program dictated that we stay in the area between sorties. There was not much for us to do except spin bigger and better yarns to each other. Initially we would sit down on the grass alongside the hard-standing where it was cooler or under the wings of the aircraft. We soon discovered that the paspalum grass was riddled with funnel web spiders. I considered ways to decrease the spider population and hit upon the idea of breaking open a round of .5 inch ammunition and pouring the granulated cordite down the spider holes.
The rounds were easily opened by inserting the bullet in the end of a gun barrel and levering it out of the cartridge case. The granulated cordite could then be easily poured from the cartridge case down a spider hole. We soon found that the angry spider would burrow up through the cordite and threaten us as best it could from a position on top of the cordite. A match dropped down the hole would then have one of several effects. If too much cordite had been inserted, one would end up with a mini explosion which would leave a little crater in the ground. Not enough and there would be a short spurt of flame. The right amount and the spider would be propelled dramatically to a height of 30 feet or so. After some experimentation we soon had a competition going.
The aim was to shoot a spider the greatest distance or to the greatest height. We had trouble with assessment of the height but the distance was readily measured with a long measuring tape that one of the umpires had in his kit.
Soon the number of spider holes having an angle to the vertical became very few and the ground around became pock marked with little craters or neater burn marks. The spider population in the area was decimated. I cannot recall who won that competition.
Highlights of flying at this time also included some display flying. I enjoyed flying the Mustang to its limits of manoeuverability and the opportunity to do this for a protracted time came with solo displays at the odd air show. For these displays I worked up a routine which must have looked fairly spectacular from the ground judging from remarks made by other pilots.
The sequence would include a spin down to a reasonably low altitude and a fair amount of inverted flying including a fly by inverted during which I would strain forward in my straps to reach the undercarriage lever and cause the undercarriage to raise into the down position if you know what I mean.
Following any extended periods of inverted flying engine oil would overflow from the engine breather system which had its outlet in the side of the left fuselage fortunately behind the cockpit. Black oil would stream back to make a mess backwards along the fuselage and all over the tail. The ground crew always deplored the task of washing down the aircraft after each of those flights.
Thanks for putting the record straight on RAAF "Top Gun".
My small claim to any fame as a fighter pilot is for being constantly shot at in Korea and doing a lot in return. Came milliseconds away from downing a T6 which had made a threatening pass at a spotting (FAC) aircraft to which we were assigned.
Post Korea and then as a flying instructor with 22 Squadron at Schofields I was able to continue to fly Mustangs. So it was that I was entered into the RAAF's annual inter squadron Weapons Competition. The extract from memoirs brings back some interesting memories and describes what it took to win the competition. Perhaps the RAAF should reopen the competition if someone can find the McCauley Shield.
From memoirs -The next few months were spent in preparations for the annual "TOP GUN" inter Squadron competition. 22 Sqn nominated Flt Lt Max Mckay and myself as its entrants.
Max and I used those months to hone our skills at Air to Air gunnery, Air to Ground gunnery, Rocketry and Dive bombing. I became pre-occupied in also honing our equipment. I had long standing doubts about the calibration of the gyro gun-sights we were using and, in the process, studied technical manuals and sought advise from the squadron instrument fitters. This initially resulted in my selection of particular gun-sights which gave me the best results. There were, however, too many unknowns in their calibration and usage and I sought ways to reduce these unknowns.
There was a widespread acceptance by all pilots that if the gyro gunsights passed elementary pre-flight and servicing checks then it was left to the skill of each pilot to sort out the rest of the unknowns. My approach though derived from a growing belief that one ought not be unquestioning about such things, particularly if such things could in many circumstances be life threatening.
Having produced some positive results from some simple airborne tests based on accurate rate turns, I was most encouraged to pursue all the variables I could find. In air to air firing one has normally to fire at a target which has a finite crossing speed across the aiming line. This means that one has to aim ahead of the target along its direction of crossing to take account of the time taken for a round to reach the target. Range and the harmonisation point of the guns becomes critical in achieving hits on the target. The guns had a fixed harmonisation at 900 ft. The determination of this 900 feet range to target seemed to be the biggest unknown in the variables and I sought ways to solve this problem.
I set up a banner target down a road at 900 feet from a gunsight set up on a tripod. The banner was at an angle of about 30 degrees which was about the angle we would expect to open fire. This gave me a look at the relative size of the banner at the right range and indicated quite clearly that we had all been firing at too great a range. At the same time I noticed a few markings on the banner. Each banner had a round black dot almost 1 foot in diameter a little above its centre line. No one I queried knew the reason for having this dot on the banner.
It wasn't until I again read the technical manual on the gun sight that I suddenly realised the significance of the dot. The manual stated in an almost insignificant paragraph that the centre dot of light in the gunsight's moving graticule subtended an angle of 1 mil. I let out a mighty yell, "I've got it!" and was impatient to again set up the banner exactly 900 feet from the portable gunsight. Yes - the black dot on the banner appeared exactly the same size as the dot of light in the sight. As we moved to a greater range the banner dot grew smaller and visa versa. I was able to discriminate range variations plus or minus about 20 feet from the target. All those involved agreed to secrecy until after the weapons competition in December.
As soon as possible I was in the air with another Mustang towing a target and I soon confirmed that I could now accurately range on the banner. Previous firings had all been well out of range for fear of colliding with the target. Scores jumped quite dramatically from 5 to 15 per cent hits to as high as 50 per cent. Scores this high were unheard of in the RAAF.
Our firing bursts were reduced in time to allow for firings as close to the harmonisation range of 900 feet as possible. On 2 occasions my rounds hit the tow wire causing the banners to fall into the sea. One of the airmen drew a cartoon of me leaning out of the cockpit carrying a huge pair of scissors. The caption said "Cottee Cuttee".
Max and I were elated as high air to air scores would give us a considerable edge over the other would be "Top Guns." We managed to keep it all secret and the airmen became almost as enthusiastic as ourselves.
Each banner we used soon became too full of holes to be re-useable and we soon used our Squadron quota. The CO helped by using influence through the stores system. To identify who had fired which rounds through a target the tips of each round were dipped in to a special paint of particular colours. Some of this paint would come off around the edge of each hole and totals of each colour could readily be counted.
The effects on the competitors when Max and I came up with 50% plus scores were dramatic. Initial disbelief followed by claims of having been armed with more than the prescribed 240 rounds or of having used targets more than once were heard. Even the umpires were suspicious and I have some pictures of a crowd of incredulous pilots around our banners. Max's and my wry smiles did little to indicate our inner feelings of delight.
Needless to say, we won the competition by a margin which has probably never been repeated. Immediately after the competition had been well and truly won, our secret was revealed. The effect on scores for air to air firing throughout the RAAF took a giant leap. Our names as winners of the McCauley Shield were suitably engraved on that trophy which was presented to us in front of the multitude of the RAAF's best fighter pilots of the time. The presentation was made by AVM McCauley himself who was then AOC of Operational Command at Glenbrook. He didn't look too well at the time, having a big shiner of a black eye and sundry pieces of sticking plaster covering minor wounds.
A couple of days earlier he had been one of several passengers in our S51 helicopter being flown by our CO Dick Wilson. Take off was proceeding from the former bowling green at the HQ at Glenbrook. The weather was hot, so performance was marginal although there was reasonable wind across the pad. Take off was achieved and the chopper hovered in ground effect with no problem. It was not until it drifted close to the eastern edge of the former bowling green that things began to happen. Ground effect was lost from the blades over the edge and an unrecoverable roll rapidly developed. The undercarriage hit the edge and the machine rolled down the hill in a frenzy of beating blades. A lot of cuts and bruises to its occupants and an abrupt end to my helicopter conversion.
It was during the weapons competition that another minor competition developed. The hard-standing in the centre of the airfield was where all of the competition aircraft were parked, serviced, refuelled and rearmed. We pilots found that the requirements of the flying program dictated that we stay in the area between sorties. There was not much for us to do except spin bigger and better yarns to each other. Initially we would sit down on the grass alongside the hard-standing where it was cooler or under the wings of the aircraft. We soon discovered that the paspalum grass was riddled with funnel web spiders. I considered ways to decrease the spider population and hit upon the idea of breaking open a round of .5 inch ammunition and pouring the granulated cordite down the spider holes.
The rounds were easily opened by inserting the bullet in the end of a gun barrel and levering it out of the cartridge case. The granulated cordite could then be easily poured from the cartridge case down a spider hole. We soon found that the angry spider would burrow up through the cordite and threaten us as best it could from a position on top of the cordite. A match dropped down the hole would then have one of several effects. If too much cordite had been inserted, one would end up with a mini explosion which would leave a little crater in the ground. Not enough and there would be a short spurt of flame. The right amount and the spider would be propelled dramatically to a height of 30 feet or so. After some experimentation we soon had a competition going.
The aim was to shoot a spider the greatest distance or to the greatest height. We had trouble with assessment of the height but the distance was readily measured with a long measuring tape that one of the umpires had in his kit.
Soon the number of spider holes having an angle to the vertical became very few and the ground around became pock marked with little craters or neater burn marks. The spider population in the area was decimated. I cannot recall who won that competition.
Highlights of flying at this time also included some display flying. I enjoyed flying the Mustang to its limits of manoeuverability and the opportunity to do this for a protracted time came with solo displays at the odd air show. For these displays I worked up a routine which must have looked fairly spectacular from the ground judging from remarks made by other pilots.
The sequence would include a spin down to a reasonably low altitude and a fair amount of inverted flying including a fly by inverted during which I would strain forward in my straps to reach the undercarriage lever and cause the undercarriage to raise into the down position if you know what I mean.
Following any extended periods of inverted flying engine oil would overflow from the engine breather system which had its outlet in the side of the left fuselage fortunately behind the cockpit. Black oil would stream back to make a mess backwards along the fuselage and all over the tail. The ground crew always deplored the task of washing down the aircraft after each of those flights.