When is "Commercial" Commercial?
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When is "Commercial" Commercial?
A friend rang this morning and told me he had to go to Wagga for a business meeting. He asked if I would fly him up and he could thus avoid the drive to and from Melbourne. He would pay the aircraft cost, I'd get a few more hours up.
As it turns out I'm tied up, so I referred him to YMMB and YMEN operators.
But niggling question remains, would such an arrangement actually constitute "commercial" flying? I think it would, even though no money would change hands, then there is also the little matter of liability.
As it turns out I'm tied up, so I referred him to YMMB and YMEN operators.
But niggling question remains, would such an arrangement actually constitute "commercial" flying? I think it would, even though no money would change hands, then there is also the little matter of liability.
I don't want to be the best pilot in the world - Just the oldest
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(1) Did he pay you personally for your services as a pilot?
(2) Did you contribute equally, in this case 50%, to the overall cost of the hire?
If you answere "no" and "yes" respectively, then I believe it would be classified as pvt ops. If however your pax only pay for the aircraft then it would not be classed as pvt under CARs
(2) Did you contribute equally, in this case 50%, to the overall cost of the hire?
If you answere "no" and "yes" respectively, then I believe it would be classified as pvt ops. If however your pax only pay for the aircraft then it would not be classed as pvt under CARs
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Why couldn't it just be two mates heading off to a certain destination. Does anyone really care where the money to pay for petrol and aircraft hire comes from???
Does it really matter if the reason for the trip was personal or business reasons?
What would the answer have been if the friend rang up and said "I want to see Uluru, can you fly me there".
Does it really matter if the reason for the trip was personal or business reasons?
What would the answer have been if the friend rang up and said "I want to see Uluru, can you fly me there".
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It's one of those grey areas that CASA has avoided clarifying until something happens by including in CAR206 the statement "and any other operations substantially similar to the above", referring to the list of ops definitely considered commercial. Who defines "substantially similar"?
Walrus
Walrus
Sunfish. When the lawyers get hold of it, just after the Coroners Inquest, the Courts will find the flight Commercial, thus elevating claims into the realms of liability under the Carrier's Liability Act.
The passenger was travelling on business to a specific destination. He paid a fee to hire the aircraft. Many new pilots fly for no pay.
It's commercial!
The passenger was travelling on business to a specific destination. He paid a fee to hire the aircraft. Many new pilots fly for no pay.
It's commercial!
Exactly like it sounds. New pilots are often convinced to work for no pay, under the guise of 'good experience'. They forget that no other industry would put up with operators demanding work-for-free.
Though the tide is turning, and operators are learning.
Though the tide is turning, and operators are learning.
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Torres................
CASA's business as the 'regulator', directly relates to how a flight is conducted between A and B, nothing more, nothing less. It is none of their business what happens once you have completed the flight.
Contrary to the view of a departed pilyk, conducting a flight and then, at the destination being involved in some business or a meeting or other matter, does not make that a commercial operation.
So if Ned Kelly and his gang jumped into his trusty 172 that Ned parks behind the Greta Pub and flew to Jerilderie, they then go and rob the local bank. Ned and his gang return to the airport and fly home to Greta. Are you telling me (as pilyk tried to) that Ned had conducted a commercial operation simply because bank robbing was Neds trade and he carried his brothers (his gang) with him on the aircraft.
tipsy
CASA's business as the 'regulator', directly relates to how a flight is conducted between A and B, nothing more, nothing less. It is none of their business what happens once you have completed the flight.
Contrary to the view of a departed pilyk, conducting a flight and then, at the destination being involved in some business or a meeting or other matter, does not make that a commercial operation.
So if Ned Kelly and his gang jumped into his trusty 172 that Ned parks behind the Greta Pub and flew to Jerilderie, they then go and rob the local bank. Ned and his gang return to the airport and fly home to Greta. Are you telling me (as pilyk tried to) that Ned had conducted a commercial operation simply because bank robbing was Neds trade and he carried his brothers (his gang) with him on the aircraft.
tipsy
Tipsy
you are right, it does not matter why the flight was made, however it does matter if the passenger paid for the entire flight, a private pilot must always pay for their seat (in this case 50%), if the other person were to pay the lot they could be going to SYD to CrispyCreme to buy donuts and it still will be calssified a commercial flight.
you are right, it does not matter why the flight was made, however it does matter if the passenger paid for the entire flight, a private pilot must always pay for their seat (in this case 50%), if the other person were to pay the lot they could be going to SYD to CrispyCreme to buy donuts and it still will be calssified a commercial flight.
Tipsy. Stop choking on your fur ball! 
I don't give credibility to the many regulator's pilyks who have endeavoured to interpret CAR206 since 1988 and the repeal of the previous ANRs.
I was suggesting that in the event of an accident and a personal claim ending up in litigation, the Courts would possibly find the businessman specifically hired the aircraft for a fee, with the intention of traveling for a specific purpose, over a specified route - therefore a commercial flight, imposing far greater limits of liability on the aircraft owner and pilot/operator, than may exist if it were a private flight. The insurer may walk away, leaving Sunfish's estate exposed.
A common acquaintance once charged me $1 for an R22 ride in order the flight was deemed commercial for insurance purposes.
Some years ago, a PPL holder and commercial photographer took photographs on a private flight, which he subsequently sold. The regulator viewed the flight as Aerial Work, subsequently confirmed by the Court.
Be aware of the limits of a "private flight".
I don't give credibility to the many regulator's pilyks who have endeavoured to interpret CAR206 since 1988 and the repeal of the previous ANRs.
I was suggesting that in the event of an accident and a personal claim ending up in litigation, the Courts would possibly find the businessman specifically hired the aircraft for a fee, with the intention of traveling for a specific purpose, over a specified route - therefore a commercial flight, imposing far greater limits of liability on the aircraft owner and pilot/operator, than may exist if it were a private flight. The insurer may walk away, leaving Sunfish's estate exposed.
A common acquaintance once charged me $1 for an R22 ride in order the flight was deemed commercial for insurance purposes.
Some years ago, a PPL holder and commercial photographer took photographs on a private flight, which he subsequently sold. The regulator viewed the flight as Aerial Work, subsequently confirmed by the Court.
Be aware of the limits of a "private flight".
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Lasio
Not correct. Every single industry where wannabes are ruled by heart's desire is subject to the same dilemma. In the music industry I have never met a muso or a sound engineer that hasn't done a free gig... just to get ahead. Here they call it paying your dues.
Same goes in Film, Television, but completely opposite situation of course in the construction industry, mining, accounting... who in their right mind would go digging for free? Who in their right mind would go flying for free?
New pilots are often convinced to work for no pay, under the guise of 'good experience'. They forget that no other industry would put up with operators demanding work-for-free.
Same goes in Film, Television, but completely opposite situation of course in the construction industry, mining, accounting... who in their right mind would go digging for free? Who in their right mind would go flying for free?
Thread Starter
In any case, my mate got up at 3 am and has at least a fourteen hour day in front of him since he is driving.
I guess the simplest solution would have been for me to pay 50% and effectively receive four hours flying for the price of two. That would then be squeaky clean wouldn't it?
....Of course if we failed to return, how would the court know of the arrangement? But I suppose a file note by me would be sufficient.
I guess the simplest solution would have been for me to pay 50% and effectively receive four hours flying for the price of two. That would then be squeaky clean wouldn't it?
....Of course if we failed to return, how would the court know of the arrangement? But I suppose a file note by me would be sufficient.
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Sunfish....
sell him an orange (or something) for $800. fly him for free!(the profit you make on the orange will cover the cost of the flight)
If you give a friend a lift in your car, does that make you a taxi driver ?
sell him an orange (or something) for $800. fly him for free!(the profit you make on the orange will cover the cost of the flight)
If you give a friend a lift in your car, does that make you a taxi driver ?
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apache:
If your friend pays you for the hire or fuel, yes it does. Except you don't have a licence to be a taxi operator so, therefore, you'd be illegal.
The other point about sharing flight costs as a private pilot is that this arrangement under the CARs is limited to maximum of 6 people (ie costs can only be split 6 ways). In other words, a private pilot cannot take 7 pax and split it 8 ways (including the pilots contribution). Raises an interesting issue for pilots flying a whole group of mates on a fishing trip in a PA31 as a private flight.
If you give a friend a lift in your car, does that make you a taxi driver ?
The other point about sharing flight costs as a private pilot is that this arrangement under the CARs is limited to maximum of 6 people (ie costs can only be split 6 ways). In other words, a private pilot cannot take 7 pax and split it 8 ways (including the pilots contribution). Raises an interesting issue for pilots flying a whole group of mates on a fishing trip in a PA31 as a private flight.
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I am a private pilot and own my own aircraft .
I also import small inspection tools for industry.
I am prevented from taking some of these tools with me to sell when I travel to remote towns as carrying goods for the purpose of trade is deemed to be a commercial flight however I can take salesmen with me and pick up tools from local freight depot and then sell them . OK private flight.
Why? What is the safety implication of having a few tools on the back seat?
I also import small inspection tools for industry.
I am prevented from taking some of these tools with me to sell when I travel to remote towns as carrying goods for the purpose of trade is deemed to be a commercial flight however I can take salesmen with me and pick up tools from local freight depot and then sell them . OK private flight.
Why? What is the safety implication of having a few tools on the back seat?
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I doubt that any of this would stand-up in court. As CAR206 doesn't cover how the costs are paid (only that the PPL must wear an equal share), you could easily argue that the businessman put the whole cost on his credit card and the PPL was going to give the businessman his share later on. I have done that before myself.
Walrus
Walrus