Why IFR?
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Why IFR?
I’ve been a VFR PPL for over ten years now and approval from the handbrake has given the green light to step it up a notch. I.e. CPL MECIR.
The question I have is regarding the CIR part. Why does the average VFR pilot have only about 170 seconds in IMC until things end up in tears eve though the PPL training gives the very basics under the hood?
Is there a major revelation during the CIR that makes everything fall into place, or is it a simple case of practise practise practise that extends that 170 seconds considerably?
Keen to hear some experience.
The question I have is regarding the CIR part. Why does the average VFR pilot have only about 170 seconds in IMC until things end up in tears eve though the PPL training gives the very basics under the hood?
Is there a major revelation during the CIR that makes everything fall into place, or is it a simple case of practise practise practise that extends that 170 seconds considerably?
Keen to hear some experience.
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Cos that's how long it takes for your instructor to bash you into unconsciousness? 
or your passengers to freak out so much they grab the controls and plummet you into a hill?
I'd be interested to hear the answer to this one as well, though I suspect it's to do with unfamiliarity and nerves, and not "trusting" the instruments instead of the inner ear?
or your passengers to freak out so much they grab the controls and plummet you into a hill?
I'd be interested to hear the answer to this one as well, though I suspect it's to do with unfamiliarity and nerves, and not "trusting" the instruments instead of the inner ear?
Grandpa Aerotart
The 170 seconds to loss of control, if memory serves, was an individual with no IF training. The little bit that you received at PPL level was included to extend that time to give someone who blunders into IMC a chance to turn around and extract himself.
There is however a vaste gulf in skill between that required to do a 180 degree turn and hold a heading for several minutes and that required to fly enroute, transition and IAL procedures/cope with turbulence, icing, other weather/talk on radio/manage aircraft systems and not end up hopelessly lost.
Situational Awareness is a definate skill that takes a considerable amount of practice and application...SA being an ability to look at all the information available in the instrument panel and get an instant, accurate, 3 dimensional picture in your mind's eye of where the aircraft is in space and time and what attitude it is in. A 'God's eye view' if you like.
Few add on ratings to a pilots licence improve your skills in general like an IR...even on a sunny day when not actually 'using' the rating...tooling around on a scenic for instance...you'll fnd yourself flying much more accurately (or you should).
There is however a vaste gulf in skill between that required to do a 180 degree turn and hold a heading for several minutes and that required to fly enroute, transition and IAL procedures/cope with turbulence, icing, other weather/talk on radio/manage aircraft systems and not end up hopelessly lost.
Situational Awareness is a definate skill that takes a considerable amount of practice and application...SA being an ability to look at all the information available in the instrument panel and get an instant, accurate, 3 dimensional picture in your mind's eye of where the aircraft is in space and time and what attitude it is in. A 'God's eye view' if you like.
Few add on ratings to a pilots licence improve your skills in general like an IR...even on a sunny day when not actually 'using' the rating...tooling around on a scenic for instance...you'll fnd yourself flying much more accurately (or you should).
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Having done my 'IF' bit for my PPL very recently, an observation - it's not done in IFR conditions - there's still a reasonable amount of spatial reference from sun, shadows on the panel, and the odd bits you can see out and down around the device.
Not enough to truly fly, but enough to assist the mind in maintaining equilibrium? I've not flown true IFR, so I don't know, but suspect that's a rather different proposition.
Not enough to truly fly, but enough to assist the mind in maintaining equilibrium? I've not flown true IFR, so I don't know, but suspect that's a rather different proposition.
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The IFR is alot about your scan-rates...
...electro-mechanical instruments: your eyes should be scanning the core flight instruments in a "T" fashion...
...EFIS instruments: in a horizontal "----" fashion across one or two screens (there are many sorts of course).
As Chimbu mentioned, this scan info your eyes read, needs to be interpreted very quickly, like second nature, in the absense of an horizon.
When you are flying in cloud, YOU WILL GET THE LEANS
, as your ears are telling you one thing while your eyes can't confirm/adjust this "ear input" with an outside visual cue... hence, trust the instruments... ALWAYS... and fly through those strange feelings and vertigo.
We are creatures very reliant on basic visual cues and we take this for granted. We need to apply ourselves abit further when in IFR, in quickly reading/interpreting Instrument read outs correctly.
You should have much fun in the learning process.
Hopefully you keep the same amount of landings, to take offs
Happy Landings.
...electro-mechanical instruments: your eyes should be scanning the core flight instruments in a "T" fashion...
...EFIS instruments: in a horizontal "----" fashion across one or two screens (there are many sorts of course).
As Chimbu mentioned, this scan info your eyes read, needs to be interpreted very quickly, like second nature, in the absense of an horizon.
When you are flying in cloud, YOU WILL GET THE LEANS
, as your ears are telling you one thing while your eyes can't confirm/adjust this "ear input" with an outside visual cue... hence, trust the instruments... ALWAYS... and fly through those strange feelings and vertigo.We are creatures very reliant on basic visual cues and we take this for granted. We need to apply ourselves abit further when in IFR, in quickly reading/interpreting Instrument read outs correctly.
You should have much fun in the learning process.
Hopefully you keep the same amount of landings, to take offs
Happy Landings.
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The IR is a necessary evil, the weather at your destination is not always as forecast, and other times the forecast is for bad weather and you still need to get the pax to their destination ( commercial pressure ).
If you wish to be a commercial pilot, flying takes on a whole new ethos. PPL flying is awesome, fly on sunny days, stay home and play with your Wii/XBOX on bad weather days.
For me, the IR was a huge learning curve, i left the school with three things:
1) a new sticker in my log book,
2) a whole lot of knowledge on the proceedures, how the instruments work etc etc, and,
3) the words of my instructor, " do not trust your inner ear in IMC, check your instruments and always cross check them to each other, for example, if your inner ear is telling you that you are turning, check your AH, DG and TC, if they are all saying that you are not, well you are not turning.
After a couple of renewals and a hundred odd hours of just following the proceedures, i started to ask why we did things a certain way, and the answers that followed opened a whole new world.
In short, the IFR proceedures are designed to get you into and out of cloud in the safest simplist and most consistent means possible.
If you wish to be a commercial pilot, flying takes on a whole new ethos. PPL flying is awesome, fly on sunny days, stay home and play with your Wii/XBOX on bad weather days.
For me, the IR was a huge learning curve, i left the school with three things:
1) a new sticker in my log book,
2) a whole lot of knowledge on the proceedures, how the instruments work etc etc, and,
3) the words of my instructor, " do not trust your inner ear in IMC, check your instruments and always cross check them to each other, for example, if your inner ear is telling you that you are turning, check your AH, DG and TC, if they are all saying that you are not, well you are not turning.
After a couple of renewals and a hundred odd hours of just following the proceedures, i started to ask why we did things a certain way, and the answers that followed opened a whole new world.
In short, the IFR proceedures are designed to get you into and out of cloud in the safest simplist and most consistent means possible.
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Having done my 'IF' bit for my PPL very recently, an observation - it's not done in IFR conditions - there's still a reasonable amount of spatial reference from sun, shadows on the panel, and the odd bits you can see out and down around the device.
Not enough to truly fly, but enough to assist the mind in maintaining equilibrium? I've not flown true IFR, so I don't know, but suspect that's a rather different proposition.
Not enough to truly fly, but enough to assist the mind in maintaining equilibrium? I've not flown true IFR, so I don't know, but suspect that's a rather different proposition.
take a pilot friend up with you (or an instructor). in vmc, put the aircraft into a rate 1 turn. now close your eyes or put a blindfold on, and see how long you can hold the rate 1 turn. see if you can hold it for 170 seconds.
the result is the same as if you were in solid imc, trying to fly by looking out the window.
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Thanks for your replies folks. Well wrapped up.
Touching on what you said toolow, I had a very good instructor at RAC when doing ab-initio who would take over while I was under the hood, blank the AH, do a very light turn to the left, and then abruptly snap back to level then hand back the plane. The results are obvious, and when invited to remove the hood it really force fed the fact that spatial dis-orientation is a very real thing and that ignoring your body and trusting your instruments is almost impossible at that stage.
From what you all say it looks as though I’ll be learning to fly again.
Cheers.
Touching on what you said toolow, I had a very good instructor at RAC when doing ab-initio who would take over while I was under the hood, blank the AH, do a very light turn to the left, and then abruptly snap back to level then hand back the plane. The results are obvious, and when invited to remove the hood it really force fed the fact that spatial dis-orientation is a very real thing and that ignoring your body and trusting your instruments is almost impossible at that stage.
From what you all say it looks as though I’ll be learning to fly again.
Cheers.
Seasonally Adjusted
If I can add one more thing...your IF skills will be very good immediately after completing the training...but...they deteriorate with time if not used regularly.
This wont be an issue if you fly in a part of the country that consistently provides challenging weather.
However, in my neck of the woods, we get months of 8/8 clear blue followed by a week of pooh down to and below the minima.
By this stage the IF skills are a bit rusty and the first day can be quite testing until you get back into the groove.
This wont be an issue if you fly in a part of the country that consistently provides challenging weather.
However, in my neck of the woods, we get months of 8/8 clear blue followed by a week of pooh down to and below the minima.
By this stage the IF skills are a bit rusty and the first day can be quite testing until you get back into the groove.
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As TQ said, recency is paramount and to add to what Chimbu Chuckles said, situational awareness, which I have found comes with experience, is invaluable for determining not only where you are in space, but also positions of the other guys trying to let-down into the same ****hole-especially in class G, no radar, where you're all on your own. Good communication is mandatory
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Chimbu Chuckles
Very good information.
An instructor used to get me to think, it was like a movie or tv screen. All the players make up one scene.
I have always found that if I imagined I was my own instructor sitting on my shoulder the game was a lot easier.
When some people first showed me the Chimbu ILS, I reckoned I needed two instructors on my shoulders!
An instructor used to get me to think, it was like a movie or tv screen. All the players make up one scene.
I have always found that if I imagined I was my own instructor sitting on my shoulder the game was a lot easier.
When some people first showed me the Chimbu ILS, I reckoned I needed two instructors on my shoulders!
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there's still a reasonable amount of spatial reference from sun, shadows on the panel, and the odd bits you can see out and down around the device.
When you are flying in cloud, YOU WILL GET THE LEANS
but nowhere near as bad as doing 'unusual attitude recovery'... especially when the instructor says "ok, recover"... you feel like you're upside down and inside out...
and you're straight and level!!
