night definition
Air Med, do you want a definition of "night" or "a night"? They are different. Night is the period of time that is not day, day is defined by other posters above.
"A night" or "a local night", if not defined by CASA, should be defined in your ops manual.
"A night" or "a local night", if not defined by CASA, should be defined in your ops manual.
Pete Fanelli
Quote:
Where is it stated (other than on here) that day is from 0001 to 2359?
And what are the other two minutes of the 24 hour period called?
Where is it stated (other than on here) that day is from 0001 to 2359?
And what are the other two minutes of the 24 hour period called?
Um, I make it only one missing minute there - that of 0000
Bottums Up
Forgive me Stallie but I do disagree.
2359 to 0000 = 1 minute.
0000 to 0001 = 1 minute
1 minute + 1 minute = 2 minute.
Me thinks the question might be reference night ops? If so, the CAO 48 exemption I work under defines Night Ops as (something like) more than 30 minutes duty between 2200 and 0530.
2359 to 0000 = 1 minute.
0000 to 0001 = 1 minute
1 minute + 1 minute = 2 minute.
Me thinks the question might be reference night ops? If so, the CAO 48 exemption I work under defines Night Ops as (something like) more than 30 minutes duty between 2200 and 0530.
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Airmed
If your company fatigue management manual or flight and duty exemption does not specify night then it should.
My outfit when talking about nights free of duty specify
'shall start no later than 2200 hours local time and finish not earlier than 0600 hours'
Perhaps you could be a little more specific about what you really want - or is it just an innocent question ?
If your company fatigue management manual or flight and duty exemption does not specify night then it should.
My outfit when talking about nights free of duty specify
'shall start no later than 2200 hours local time and finish not earlier than 0600 hours'
Perhaps you could be a little more specific about what you really want - or is it just an innocent question ?
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With respect to the company that both Air Med and I work for, they have approached CASA for a definition of "night" to ammend / clarify the ops manual but none of the FOI's can either come to an agreement or give a reasonable definition of one. And they have approved the exemption to which we operate.
What's the context?
Our ops manual has a "local night" defined as being from 2200 to 0600 and is generally used for the purpose of defining days off (a day off must encompass two local nights) or for relaxing time free of duty requirements. Time free of duty can be less than 10 hours in particular circumstances including the time free of duty encompassing a local night.
Then we have "late night ops" which are from (I think, going by memory) 0000 to 0500. Flying between those hours restricts the amount of duty you can do and sometimes increases the time free of duty requirements.
I think your company simply has to come up with some numbers that are agreeable to the employees and submit the change to CASA for approval.
Our ops manual has a "local night" defined as being from 2200 to 0600 and is generally used for the purpose of defining days off (a day off must encompass two local nights) or for relaxing time free of duty requirements. Time free of duty can be less than 10 hours in particular circumstances including the time free of duty encompassing a local night.
Then we have "late night ops" which are from (I think, going by memory) 0000 to 0500. Flying between those hours restricts the amount of duty you can do and sometimes increases the time free of duty requirements.
I think your company simply has to come up with some numbers that are agreeable to the employees and submit the change to CASA for approval.
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Guys believe me not trying to stir up crap here.
As the Strez has said, we had a problem with duty calulations, which had to be clarified, so we asked 3 FOI to give us the answer,only to be told, that there is no definition of "Night".
The 2200 to 0600 is a rest period quote but it does not define the Night.
Casa say that a day is from 0001 to 2359, thats it.But if you then ask well when does a night start for Flight and Duty hours, they dont have a answer.
At the moment we are awaiting for Canberra to tell us, but have been waiting for a few months now.
The reason I asked the question is that maybe there is something that the CASA guys are missing.
All of you have the given what I would have thought as the right answers, but this is not what CASA are saying.
Chat with the Perth FOI and they will in form you that it is on going
As the Strez has said, we had a problem with duty calulations, which had to be clarified, so we asked 3 FOI to give us the answer,only to be told, that there is no definition of "Night".
The 2200 to 0600 is a rest period quote but it does not define the Night.
Casa say that a day is from 0001 to 2359, thats it.But if you then ask well when does a night start for Flight and Duty hours, they dont have a answer.
At the moment we are awaiting for Canberra to tell us, but have been waiting for a few months now.
The reason I asked the question is that maybe there is something that the CASA guys are missing.
All of you have the given what I would have thought as the right answers, but this is not what CASA are saying.
Chat with the Perth FOI and they will in form you that it is on going
Grandpa Aerotart
The reason I asked the question is that maybe there is something that the CASA guys are missing
Yes...there is something they're missing
All of you have the given what I would have thought as the right answers, but this is not what CASA are saying.
Easy...YOU tell them what the definition will be in your operation..2200-0600 sounds like a great start.
Sit down and in the glossary of terms/definitions section at the front of your manual write;
"For the purposes of this document, and any other controlled documents that the company will, from time to time, append, issue or make available to staff the term 'night', whether 'local' or otherwise, will be understood to encompass the period of 8 consecutive hours between 2200LT and 0600LT."
I have seen definitions that say 'any 6 consecutive hours between 2200LT and 0600LT within a time zone 2 hours wide'...but that is just taking the piss
From that (approved) definition all things flow in an easily understood manner...which makes CASA's reluctance even more sickening.
My experience of CASA...consistantly over decades...is that they will avoid, whenever possible (always), giving you a concise answer...they WILL NOT risk being held accountable...but they will approve whatever reasonable concise answers you give them.
Honestly...deliver unto them a fait accompli and then move on with your life.
Yes...there is something they're missing
All of you have the given what I would have thought as the right answers, but this is not what CASA are saying.
Easy...YOU tell them what the definition will be in your operation..2200-0600 sounds like a great start.
Sit down and in the glossary of terms/definitions section at the front of your manual write;
"For the purposes of this document, and any other controlled documents that the company will, from time to time, append, issue or make available to staff the term 'night', whether 'local' or otherwise, will be understood to encompass the period of 8 consecutive hours between 2200LT and 0600LT."
I have seen definitions that say 'any 6 consecutive hours between 2200LT and 0600LT within a time zone 2 hours wide'...but that is just taking the piss
From that (approved) definition all things flow in an easily understood manner...which makes CASA's reluctance even more sickening.
My experience of CASA...consistantly over decades...is that they will avoid, whenever possible (always), giving you a concise answer...they WILL NOT risk being held accountable...but they will approve whatever reasonable concise answers you give them.
Honestly...deliver unto them a fait accompli and then move on with your life.
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The problem occurs when for example you are rostered on for night shift say on call form Wed night 1800 and than get called out at 0100 on Thursday, does the hours become part of the Wed rostered period or Thurs rostered period and depending on the case when you are running out of Duty hours in 14 days time do you recieve those hours back on the Wed or the thurs or do you click the next day to see how many hours you get back after midnight. Things can get worse, are you doing 90 hours of duty in 14 consecutive days or 100 hours, this problem only applies to a small group of people that are affected by a stanby call out rostering system. Perhaps the days and nights need to be replaced by the word rostered shift, ie not person can work more than 90 hours over 10 rostered shifts in a 14 day (0000-2359.9) there only lost 0.1 of a minute or 6secs. Airmed doesn't affect you anyway you are always overnighting in Perth.....
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Desert Rat
Years ago when flying Airmed I created a spreadsheet in Excel for my F&D. I had two lines per day. This way I could show duty starting at whatever time (0100in your example) and finishing at the appropriate time. When on call again, usually from 1800, the next duty would be entered and the appropriate rest period was obvious to see.
Does that sort of thing solve your dilemma? If so, I might have a copy of the spreadsheet still available.
Years ago when flying Airmed I created a spreadsheet in Excel for my F&D. I had two lines per day. This way I could show duty starting at whatever time (0100in your example) and finishing at the appropriate time. When on call again, usually from 1800, the next duty would be entered and the appropriate rest period was obvious to see.
Does that sort of thing solve your dilemma? If so, I might have a copy of the spreadsheet still available.