Q: IFR Circling in VMC Conditions
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From a legal point of view, CAR 1988 applies. The relevant bits of the reg are:
CASA notifies the distances for Class G airspace in AIP ENR 2.6.
2 Interpretation
(1) In these Regulations, unless the contrary intention appears:
.....
I.M.C. is the symbol used to designate meteorological conditions other than those designated by the symbol “V.M.C.”.
.....
V.M.C. is the symbol used to designate meteorological conditions in which the flight visibility and distances from cloud during a flight are equal to, or greater than, the applicable distances determined by CASA under subregulation 172 (2).
(1) In these Regulations, unless the contrary intention appears:
.....
I.M.C. is the symbol used to designate meteorological conditions other than those designated by the symbol “V.M.C.”.
.....
V.M.C. is the symbol used to designate meteorological conditions in which the flight visibility and distances from cloud during a flight are equal to, or greater than, the applicable distances determined by CASA under subregulation 172 (2).
166 Operating in vicinity of a non-controlled aerodrome
.....
(2) The pilot in command of an aircraft that is being operated in the Vicinity of a non-controlled aerodrome must:
.....
(d) unless subregulation (3) or (4) applies — when approaching the aerodrome to land, join the circuit pattern for the direction in which landing is to be undertaken on the upwind, crosswind or downwind leg; and
.....
(b) the pilot broadcasts the intention to do so on the VHF frequency in use at the aerodrome; and
(a) CASA has given approval to do so; and
(b) details of the approval have been published in AIP.
.....
(2) The pilot in command of an aircraft that is being operated in the Vicinity of a non-controlled aerodrome must:
.....
(d) unless subregulation (3) or (4) applies — when approaching the aerodrome to land, join the circuit pattern for the direction in which landing is to be undertaken on the upwind, crosswind or downwind leg; and
.....
(3) The pilot in command of an aircraft may carry out a straight-in approach to a non-controlled aerodrome only if:
(a) the aircraft is equipped with serviceable radio; and(b) the pilot broadcasts the intention to do so on the VHF frequency in use at the aerodrome; and
(c) before starting the approach, the pilot determines wind direction and runways in use; and
(d) the pilot carries out all manoeuvring, to establish the aircraft on final approach, at least 5 miles from the threshold of the landing runway intended to be used; and
(e) the pilot gives way to any other aircraft established and flying in the circuit pattern at the aerodrome.
Penalty: 25 penalty units.
(4) The pilot in command of an aircraft may join the circuit pattern at a non-controlled aerodrome on the base leg, for the direction in which landing is to be undertaken, only if:(d) the pilot carries out all manoeuvring, to establish the aircraft on final approach, at least 5 miles from the threshold of the landing runway intended to be used; and
(e) the pilot gives way to any other aircraft established and flying in the circuit pattern at the aerodrome.
Penalty: 25 penalty units.
(a) CASA has given approval to do so; and
(b) details of the approval have been published in AIP.
Penalty: 25 penalty units.
(5) Paragraphs (2) (d) and (3) (b), (c) and (d) do not apply if:(a) the pilot is conducting an instrument approach in I.M.C.; and
(b) the instrument approach procedure positions the aircraft to join the circuit other than on the upwind, cross-wind or down-wind leg of the circuit pattern.
172 Flight visibility and distance from cloud
.....
(2) Subject to subregulation (4), the pilot in command must not conduct a V.F.R. flight if:
(2A) CASA may determine applicable distances for the purposes of subregulation (2).
(2B) CASA must notify the distances determined under subregulation (2A) in AIP or NOTAMS.
(3) When determining applicable distances, CASA may do so by reference to a class of airspace.
.....
(2) Subject to subregulation (4), the pilot in command must not conduct a V.F.R. flight if:
(a) the flight visibility during that flight is not equal to or greater than the applicable distance determined by CASA; and
(b) the vertical and horizontal distances from cloud are not equal to or greater than the applicable distances determined by CASA.
.....(b) the vertical and horizontal distances from cloud are not equal to or greater than the applicable distances determined by CASA.
(2A) CASA may determine applicable distances for the purposes of subregulation (2).
(2B) CASA must notify the distances determined under subregulation (2A) in AIP or NOTAMS.
(3) When determining applicable distances, CASA may do so by reference to a class of airspace.
So even at night IF VMC EXISTS you are required to join and fly three legs of the circuit EVEN IF YOU HAVE CONDUCTED AN INSTRUMENT APPROACH THAT POSITIONS YOU ON FINAL (except when established on final outside 5nm). Is this the safest way of approaching a runway at night - no 
way IMHO, smart - no, practical - no, good airmanship - no, but the law nonetheless.
way IMHO, smart - no, practical - no, good airmanship - no, but the law nonetheless.WARNING - THREAD CREEP
So, Capt Wally do you want one rule for aircraft on IFR plans and one rule for aircraft on VFR plans? Is it only VFR pilots that are "cowboys" because they choose not to obey some circuit rules? You do argue very forcefully in other threads how unsafe it is for aircraft to join a straight in approach or on base.
This could get interesting. 
Last edited by werbil; 22nd Sep 2007 at 04:16. Reason: add "except when established on final outside 5nm" to my statement about reqirement to fly three legs correct.
So who, other than the PIC can testify that IMC conditions did NOT exist, in the vicinity of the aircraft, at the time the decision was made to continue with a circling approach procedure off the instrument approach?
"Your worship, when I completed the instrument approach to the minima, I noted that I was in reduced visibility conditions as I could only see the first 3rd or so of the runway lights. At that point I decided that the safest course of action was to conduct a circling approach onto the runway".
Dr
"Your worship, when I completed the instrument approach to the minima, I noted that I was in reduced visibility conditions as I could only see the first 3rd or so of the runway lights. At that point I decided that the safest course of action was to conduct a circling approach onto the runway".
Dr
Last edited by ForkTailedDrKiller; 21st Sep 2007 at 07:15.
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Well said werbil
There y'go blueloo,
Not anymore.
Exactly. Here comes your reason - keeping it legal
So even at night IF VMC EXISTS you are required to join and fly three legs of the circuit EVEN IF YOU HAVE CONDUCTED AN INSTRUMENT APPROACH THAT POSITIONS YOU ON FINAL.
So I am yet to see where it says you have to fly 3 legs.
When we are recommended to do something, I am sure the wording was chosen for a reason.
Last edited by SmokingHole; 21st Sep 2007 at 04:39.
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.........well said echidnaaa,........'let's not start getting personal", pitty some others in here.............."werbil"................ahhh just another one in here who loves personal attacks, at least yr keeping an eye on what I write, good to see, as long as I know the likes of you are annouyed a little then the more you are the more i'm getting my view across!
.......yr post is rather in depth even if it is just a copy & paste of the regs.......you did however forget one thing............rules are fine but common sense must prevail overall
My post was just in reference to what most others where saying in here seeing as the original question had been passed over somewhat & digressed into what to do when visual at the minima during an actual approach, not totally in VMC as was where it all started Love a healthy debate, just not when 'children' get invloved !
Capt wally
.......yr post is rather in depth even if it is just a copy & paste of the regs.......you did however forget one thing............rules are fine but common sense must prevail overallMy post was just in reference to what most others where saying in here seeing as the original question had been passed over somewhat & digressed into what to do when visual at the minima during an actual approach, not totally in VMC as was where it all started
Love a healthy debate, just not when 'children' get invloved !Capt wally
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Hmm interesting - not having the regs here, purely based on the info supplied above - I would still disagree.
Still happy to be corrected -
My thoughts would be - what constitutes approval - is it individual approval - or does the AIP constitute approval. Usually CASA specifies "operator approval" when referring to specific approval.
I would suggest, that the intent is that the AIP constitutes the approval from CASA, and the details of the approval would lie in the previous reference to the AIP to the particualr paragraphs.
If this is not the case, then there must be many instances of the AIP contradicting the CARS/CAOs.
Remember these new circuit procedures were released with much publicity, glossy brochures and videos, with all material written as per the AIP.
Still happy to be corrected -
4) The pilot in command of an aircraft may join the circuit pattern at a non-controlled aerodrome on the base leg, for the direction in which landing is to be undertaken, only if:
(a) CASA has given approval to do so; and
(b) details of the approval have been published in AIP.
(a) CASA has given approval to do so; and
(b) details of the approval have been published in AIP.
I would suggest, that the intent is that the AIP constitutes the approval from CASA, and the details of the approval would lie in the previous reference to the AIP to the particualr paragraphs.
If this is not the case, then there must be many instances of the AIP contradicting the CARS/CAOs.
Remember these new circuit procedures were released with much publicity, glossy brochures and videos, with all material written as per the AIP.
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Think we all agree one thing - its a questionable rule. If this question, however, has been raised by someone fairly new to IFR,as a newbee, he should adhere to the rules. He's not expected to be a full-blown IFR pilot upon the initial issue - he has just been deemed safe enough to hold the rating. As he gains experience, he will develop common sense ie the ability to consider what would,in most people's experience, be prudent and of sound judgement.
FTDK, isn't this guy better off just doing things by the book before contemplating an @rse covering exercise?
So who, other than the PIC can testify that IMC conditions did NOT exist, in the vicinity of the aircraft, at the time the decision was made to continue with a circling approach procedure off the instrument approach?
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cjam: " most of the rnav approaches I do ya have to bloody circle off anyway"
I suggest that you rethink the way that you conduct your RNAV NPAs then.
Why don't you just land straight in when you become visual at or before the MDA?
Or haven't you briefed yourself well enough before commencing the approach, let alone the flight.
Most of us do.
Some people just can't help themselves.
I suggest that you rethink the way that you conduct your RNAV NPAs then.
Why don't you just land straight in when you become visual at or before the MDA?
Or haven't you briefed yourself well enough before commencing the approach, let alone the flight.
Most of us do.
Some people just can't help themselves.
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Are you permitted to complete a circling approach off the instrument approach to join final? (from a long oblique base)
Yes.
Yes.
Last edited by WynSock; 21st Sep 2007 at 11:17. Reason: 'long' not 'wide'
Forget what the rules may or may not say for a moment, and someone explain to me why it would be less safe to circle onto the runway than to fly "at least 3 legs of the circuit", which if I understand the senario correctly would actually involve "6 legs".
Dr
Dr
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FTDK, it wouldn't be safer....in fact, it would be less safe, but some folk are so worried about complying with every rule to the letter that they haven't noticed that now days, it's sometimes at the expense of common sense, airmanship, and safety.
Rooster,
you ask "Why don't you just land straight in when you become visual at or before the MDA?
Or haven't you briefed yourself well enough before commencing the approach, let alone the flight."
......thats a bit rough isn't it? basically suggesting that I don't know what i'm doing when I'm at work when you don't even know my experience. That sort of carry-on could make people think you are arrogant. Especially when it exposes limitations in your experience levels.
I will answer your questions for you though,
1/ I don't land straight in because the rnav approach is 90 degrees to the only landing vector and the only option is to circle to land, or carry out the miss.
2/Either I or the person to my right has briefed the approach very well.
So like I said the first time... and the second time......"most of the rnav approaches I do ya have to bloody circle off anyway"
Rooster,
you ask "Why don't you just land straight in when you become visual at or before the MDA?
Or haven't you briefed yourself well enough before commencing the approach, let alone the flight."
......thats a bit rough isn't it? basically suggesting that I don't know what i'm doing when I'm at work when you don't even know my experience. That sort of carry-on could make people think you are arrogant. Especially when it exposes limitations in your experience levels.
I will answer your questions for you though,
1/ I don't land straight in because the rnav approach is 90 degrees to the only landing vector and the only option is to circle to land, or carry out the miss.
2/Either I or the person to my right has briefed the approach very well.
So like I said the first time... and the second time......"most of the rnav approaches I do ya have to bloody circle off anyway"
".... some folk are so worried about complying with every rule to the letter .... "
Yes, I recall some years ago when four people died in a C172 that hit a tree in an attempted a forced landing into a paddock - right alongside a perfectly good (and clear) road.
The view at the time was that the pilot had been conditioned in his training to reject roads as possible forced landing sites because:
1) they are often associated with powerlines, and
2) he might get into trouble with DCA for landing on a road
Dr
Yes, I recall some years ago when four people died in a C172 that hit a tree in an attempted a forced landing into a paddock - right alongside a perfectly good (and clear) road.
The view at the time was that the pilot had been conditioned in his training to reject roads as possible forced landing sites because:
1) they are often associated with powerlines, and
2) he might get into trouble with DCA for landing on a road
Dr
Grandpa Aerotart
Well as a start I would say training. I don't actually remember doing a single 'circling' manouver in my initial IR training or flight test...that was 20+ years ago so I am prepared to admit that my memory is at fault. I can gaurantee though I never did one at night during that training. Lots of ILSs, NDBs, ADF holding patterns, limited panel etc but **** all low circling.
Very different story once I was using the rating in an airline environment...even the Talair, Reg 203/Supplemental airline, environment. We did them every 6 mths at renewal time...as well as DME homing/Letdown etc. We do them in the sim where I work now on a regular basis although virtually never in the real world. I am sure that places like RFDS emphasise them in their recurrent and would have a fairly rigid SOP way of doing them. Flown properly they are a precise manouver in their own right.
Sometimes they are the smartest option by far...I have argued that to be the case on the LHR GPSNPA when the weather is at or near the minimums...and as long as they are a planned manouver rather than an adhoc 'save' to avoid a missed approach I actually think they are safe enough assuming adequate pilot training and practice.
When I was flying SP IFR RPT/CHTR I used to practice them regularly and used them in anger regularly so I was always very comfortable doing them...usually when arriving somewhere that would have me naturally joining crosswind/downwind it was easy enough to configure appropriately and join the circuit at 500', or lower, and fly a simulated bad weather circuit. That was in the pre MDA days when the only rule for circling was "dont hit anything."
What catches people out is being too fast, configuring too late and losing sight of the runway or over shooting the (constant) turn downwind/base/final, tightening up the turn and losing it in marginal vis. Partly that is down to the way 'square' circuits are taught in flying schools which carries over into bottom end GA operations..the higher the performance the more innappropriate square circuits become...they are a potential trap for young players IFR in low vis conditions...much more empasis needs putting on constant curving descents from downwind to final earlier in pilot training...in fact if I was king for a day I'd probably ban square circuits
What a load of old cock.
Very different story once I was using the rating in an airline environment...even the Talair, Reg 203/Supplemental airline, environment. We did them every 6 mths at renewal time...as well as DME homing/Letdown etc. We do them in the sim where I work now on a regular basis although virtually never in the real world. I am sure that places like RFDS emphasise them in their recurrent and would have a fairly rigid SOP way of doing them. Flown properly they are a precise manouver in their own right.
Sometimes they are the smartest option by far...I have argued that to be the case on the LHR GPSNPA when the weather is at or near the minimums...and as long as they are a planned manouver rather than an adhoc 'save' to avoid a missed approach I actually think they are safe enough assuming adequate pilot training and practice.
When I was flying SP IFR RPT/CHTR I used to practice them regularly and used them in anger regularly so I was always very comfortable doing them...usually when arriving somewhere that would have me naturally joining crosswind/downwind it was easy enough to configure appropriately and join the circuit at 500', or lower, and fly a simulated bad weather circuit. That was in the pre MDA days when the only rule for circling was "dont hit anything."
What catches people out is being too fast, configuring too late and losing sight of the runway or over shooting the (constant) turn downwind/base/final, tightening up the turn and losing it in marginal vis. Partly that is down to the way 'square' circuits are taught in flying schools which carries over into bottom end GA operations..the higher the performance the more innappropriate square circuits become...they are a potential trap for young players IFR in low vis conditions...much more empasis needs putting on constant curving descents from downwind to final earlier in pilot training...in fact if I was king for a day I'd probably ban square circuits
So even at night IF VMC EXISTS you are required to join and fly three legs of the circuit EVEN IF YOU HAVE CONDUCTED AN INSTRUMENT APPROACH THAT POSITIONS YOU ON FINAL.
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Chimbu, I don't think you'll find anyone here who will disagree with you on the practical benefits of visual circling. Having only ever done them by day myself, I have found them quite useful especially when the wind favoured a runway different to the available approach. Sometimes I have joined finals and other times I have had to manoeuvre within the circling area in order to align with the runway and, keeping the runway visual on my left most times, I ended up flying a curcuit anyway. They are actually quite enjoyable to do.
The question that still remains is why car166(5) only gives an exemption from flying the three normal curcuit legs if IMC exists - ie you can't join final or base off an instrument approach at a non-controlled AD if the approach is done in VMC. I don't know why when in reality, it's done in training everyday!
The question that still remains is why car166(5) only gives an exemption from flying the three normal curcuit legs if IMC exists - ie you can't join final or base off an instrument approach at a non-controlled AD if the approach is done in VMC. I don't know why when in reality, it's done in training everyday!
Grandpa Aerotart
(3) The pilot in command of an aircraft may carry out a straight-in approach to a non-controlled aerodrome only if:
(a) the aircraft is equipped with serviceable radio; and
(b) the pilot broadcasts the intention to do so on the VHF frequency in use at the aerodrome; and
(c) before starting the approach, the pilot determines wind direction and runways in use; and
(d) the pilot carries out all manoeuvring, to establish the aircraft on final approach, at least 5 miles from the threshold of the landing runway intended to be used; and
(e) the pilot gives way to any other aircraft established and flying in the circuit pattern at the aerodrome.
(a) the aircraft is equipped with serviceable radio; and
(b) the pilot broadcasts the intention to do so on the VHF frequency in use at the aerodrome; and
(c) before starting the approach, the pilot determines wind direction and runways in use; and
(d) the pilot carries out all manoeuvring, to establish the aircraft on final approach, at least 5 miles from the threshold of the landing runway intended to be used; and
(e) the pilot gives way to any other aircraft established and flying in the circuit pattern at the aerodrome.
All it says (later) is that in IMC you don't have to fly three legs and you don't need to b/. broadcast intention to do a straight in (it's assumed) c/. determine wind direction and runway in use or d/. carry out all manouvering outside 5nm.
5) Paragraphs (2) (d) (3 legs of) and (3) (b), (c) and (d) (as above) do not apply if:
(a) the pilot is conducting an instrument approach in I.M.C.; and
(b) the instrument approach procedure positions the aircraft to join the circuit other than on the upwind, cross-wind or down-wind leg of the circuit pattern.
(a) the pilot is conducting an instrument approach in I.M.C.; and
(b) the instrument approach procedure positions the aircraft to join the circuit other than on the upwind, cross-wind or down-wind leg of the circuit pattern.
Last edited by Chimbu chuckles; 21st Sep 2007 at 16:30.
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We're not talking straight in approaches.
I dont have CASA approval to join base or finals.
It's not IMC
"when approaching the aerodrome to land, join the circuit pattern for the direction in which landing is to be undertaken on the upwind, crosswind or downwind leg;do not apply if:the pilot is conducting an instrument approach in I.M.C."
Does this not mean, if it isn't IMC, you must fly three legs?
I dont have CASA approval to join base or finals.
It's not IMC
"when approaching the aerodrome to land, join the circuit pattern for the direction in which landing is to be undertaken on the upwind, crosswind or downwind leg;do not apply if:the pilot is conducting an instrument approach in I.M.C."
Does this not mean, if it isn't IMC, you must fly three legs?
Grandpa Aerotart
It most certainly DOES NOT mean that.
You most certainly DO HAVE approval to fly a straight in approach provided
you meet the criteria outlined in the AIP.
Why can't you do a night visual straight in approach here?
I can see absolutely no reason why I wouldn't.
Can you think of a reason why it might actually be a very good idea on a pitch black night provided you meet the AIP criteria?
You most certainly DO HAVE approval to fly a straight in approach provided
you meet the criteria outlined in the AIP.
Why can't you do a night visual straight in approach here?
I can see absolutely no reason why I wouldn't.
Can you think of a reason why it might actually be a very good idea on a pitch black night provided you meet the AIP criteria?