Is Pacific Blue really suited to New Zealand?
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Is Pacific Blue really suited to New Zealand?
Pacific Blue are allocating two Boeing 737-800 to fly domestic routes in New Zealand. How many kiwi airports actually justify the 180 seat capacity for 738s?
Secondly Virgin Blue takes delivery of it's E-190 jets in 2008 and have several other options. Undoubtedly in my view the 738 will prove too big for services to many NZ provincial centres so how long until the E-190 migrates to NZ domestic routes and then what are the practical implications of that for small town NZ ?
These E-jets have pitifully small baggage holds with less than a metre's loft inside them. No room for airfreight from many regional centres. Certain cities like Invercargill for instance, need to fly out live lobster and wet fish exports.
Admittedly Air NZ does not serve that airfreight need well at the moment, but wont the E-jets undermine airfreight capacity out of Dunedin and Christchurch and offer nothing in return ?
Also looking at the E-190's performance, a full trans Tasman passenger load for the Embraer E-190 is 10,904kg including baggage at 20 kg per passenger. Fuel required for 1,500nm which is Invercargill to Brisbane with a small fuel reserve is 11,000 kg which takes the aircraft to it’s Maximum Take Off Weight (MTOW). Where's the room for airfreight ?
Aren't Embraers just overgrown executive jets rather than small airliners.
Please give us a diagnosis people. Will DJ operate to provincial NZ with 738s or E-jets and in either scenario what do you predict ?
Secondly Virgin Blue takes delivery of it's E-190 jets in 2008 and have several other options. Undoubtedly in my view the 738 will prove too big for services to many NZ provincial centres so how long until the E-190 migrates to NZ domestic routes and then what are the practical implications of that for small town NZ ?
These E-jets have pitifully small baggage holds with less than a metre's loft inside them. No room for airfreight from many regional centres. Certain cities like Invercargill for instance, need to fly out live lobster and wet fish exports.
Admittedly Air NZ does not serve that airfreight need well at the moment, but wont the E-jets undermine airfreight capacity out of Dunedin and Christchurch and offer nothing in return ?
Also looking at the E-190's performance, a full trans Tasman passenger load for the Embraer E-190 is 10,904kg including baggage at 20 kg per passenger. Fuel required for 1,500nm which is Invercargill to Brisbane with a small fuel reserve is 11,000 kg which takes the aircraft to it’s Maximum Take Off Weight (MTOW). Where's the room for airfreight ?
Aren't Embraers just overgrown executive jets rather than small airliners.
Please give us a diagnosis people. Will DJ operate to provincial NZ with 738s or E-jets and in either scenario what do you predict ?
Invercargill to Brisbane !!! I think that would be a bit optimistic with any kind of equipment. I think it will be a fair way down the track before any of the Embraers make a domestic appearance in NZ
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Yes indeed why would we even consider Invercargil to Brisy route data, it will surely be a few more decades before that happens. Although you never know in aviation. If they use something different like the E190 in regional NZ it will surely hub (AKL or CHC) to PB trans tasman flying.
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DJ made a suggestion that come November they will make announcements about two other destinations in NZ. Assuming they use 738s, which two places ?
Virgin Blue/Pacific Blue have always expressed an interest in Trans Tasman flights into Rotorua.
So where else has the runway length (and PCN strength) for a 738 service ?
Why Invercargill ?
It's not rocket science. Two years ago in email conversations with the manager of Queenstown airport about the possibility of scheduling a Beech 1900 service there, he made comment that they were imminently expecting a 738 service.
Obviously the IFR minimas at ZQN made it unattractive. Air NZ has a GPS letdown system developed for it's A320s and sail into there from Rotorua when Qantas have to divert.
What's the nearest alternative to Queenstown ?
Invercargill, where the runway is now extended to 2,200m.
So let me amplify the question which I think you've asked...
Is there the traffic to justify IVC ?
PS
If the Embraers are used in NZ why would they hub at all ?
Bypassing the hubs is a superior option. Less cycles = less maintenance.
Virgin Blue/Pacific Blue have always expressed an interest in Trans Tasman flights into Rotorua.
So where else has the runway length (and PCN strength) for a 738 service ?
Why Invercargill ?
It's not rocket science. Two years ago in email conversations with the manager of Queenstown airport about the possibility of scheduling a Beech 1900 service there, he made comment that they were imminently expecting a 738 service.
Obviously the IFR minimas at ZQN made it unattractive. Air NZ has a GPS letdown system developed for it's A320s and sail into there from Rotorua when Qantas have to divert.
What's the nearest alternative to Queenstown ?
Invercargill, where the runway is now extended to 2,200m.
So let me amplify the question which I think you've asked...
Is there the traffic to justify IVC ?
PS
If the Embraers are used in NZ why would they hub at all ?
Bypassing the hubs is a superior option. Less cycles = less maintenance.
Didn't Qantas start RNP 0.3 approaches into QN last year ?
http://www.aip.net.nz/pdf/NZQN_45.1_45.2.pdf
http://www.aip.net.nz/pdf/NZQN_45.3_45.4.pdf
Plus who is going to want to spend 3 hrs on a bus from IVC after a 3 hour flight?
http://www.aip.net.nz/pdf/NZQN_45.1_45.2.pdf
http://www.aip.net.nz/pdf/NZQN_45.3_45.4.pdf
Plus who is going to want to spend 3 hrs on a bus from IVC after a 3 hour flight?
What's the nearest alternative to Queenstown ?
For the 2 destinations it will most likely be Dunedin, Queenstown, Hamilton, Rotovegas.
Most likely Dunners and Qtown or Dunners and Hamilton.
Dunedin would be a great Destination for Pac Blue as it has a brand new terminal, extended runway, facilities for INTL flights and only has one airline underserving it and it is priced accordingly.
Q-town is also good as it is attractive to toursists and for weekend getaways for kiwis so if pac blue marketed and priced right they will do well.
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Overland from Dunedin is a lot harder than from Invercargill and doesn't have the mighty Milford sound up the road.
Air NZ has laid on extra flights at Dunedin, including a direct one to Auckland. Dunedin gets fog issues too.
Just trying to get a realistic handle here. I like Dunedin too (bit cold though) and from a passenger traffic point of view makes more sense.
Air NZ has laid on extra flights at Dunedin, including a direct one to Auckland. Dunedin gets fog issues too.
Just trying to get a realistic handle here. I like Dunedin too (bit cold though) and from a passenger traffic point of view makes more sense.
Ya freeze ya nuts off in Dunedin!! went back for a "Holiday" to see family and friends and my god am i glad i moved to Aussie from Dunners, between the snow and the -9temps it was enough of a winter for the next 5-6 years. But was nice to have a real winter something we dont have up here!
Dunedin has a couple direct DUD-AKL flights a day which are usually quite full, several CHC flights and a few DUD-WLG and then onto various destinations a day.
Also the official figure from Dunedin airport and Air NZ is that Dunedin averages an 80% load factor for all flights, which is pretty good.
Dunedin has a couple direct DUD-AKL flights a day which are usually quite full, several CHC flights and a few DUD-WLG and then onto various destinations a day.
Also the official figure from Dunedin airport and Air NZ is that Dunedin averages an 80% load factor for all flights, which is pretty good.
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You only freeze you nuts off in Dunedin if you go skinny dipping in Dunedin Harbour in July. We have about two weeks in mid winter when the frost is bad on the roads - you go past lots of cars which have skidded of the road. If we get snow it stays for one day - Canterbury gets worse.
The Virgin Blue fleet does include some 737-700s - those would make sense for some NZ domestic services, or some Trans Tasman.
We want PB in Dunedin, but how will they service this city. Dunedin uses the AirNZ service to Wellington, which carries a lot of people doing a day's business in the Capital. These people want to avoid staying in a hotel if possible. PB will probably want to avoid overnighting crew in DUD during their first year, so they would have to fly a plane down from CHC at 6 am, and hope to avoid Dunedin's foggy days. The Dunedin services to AKL feed International flights, but PB would not have the international flights to feed (until V.Australia starts flying AKL-LAX - some time.)
So, DUD would mainly be a low yield city for PB, which is good for us while PB fly here. We hope that they will not split the market so much that we lose one of the AirNZ DUD-AKL services.
The Virgin Blue fleet does include some 737-700s - those would make sense for some NZ domestic services, or some Trans Tasman.
We want PB in Dunedin, but how will they service this city. Dunedin uses the AirNZ service to Wellington, which carries a lot of people doing a day's business in the Capital. These people want to avoid staying in a hotel if possible. PB will probably want to avoid overnighting crew in DUD during their first year, so they would have to fly a plane down from CHC at 6 am, and hope to avoid Dunedin's foggy days. The Dunedin services to AKL feed International flights, but PB would not have the international flights to feed (until V.Australia starts flying AKL-LAX - some time.)
So, DUD would mainly be a low yield city for PB, which is good for us while PB fly here. We hope that they will not split the market so much that we lose one of the AirNZ DUD-AKL services.
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I must admit the -800 seems like an odd choice when presumably the -700 could have been sourced instead. Will be interesting to see what sort of loads they can get once the $39 fares run out. QF and Air NZ are already very competitively priced on the main trunk routes. Air NZ have the advantage of a fully integrated domestic network whilst both Air NZ and QF can offer on-carriage to world-wide destinations.
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NZTG!!
NZTG is in process of getting a massive increase to its terminal size, and double the carparks. 
I'm surprised there's been no press of the prospect of PB flying in/out TG!
Its got 1825m currently - though is set to get a 150m extension, along with parrallel taxiway soonish.
I'm surprised there's been no press of the prospect of PB flying in/out TG!
Its got 1825m currently - though is set to get a 150m extension, along with parrallel taxiway soonish.
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kiwiguy...would agree...800,s seem like a little overkill indeed(seat wise)
Makes me wonder as to the "price or deal "Boeing gave ......it would seem that there are bigger things on the horizon and that these A/C will not be permanent "'domestic" A/C........
It wont take long to find out whether this is a viable choice......one things for sure.....there is no comparison in comfort between an 800 v,s an RJ...
Makes me wonder as to the "price or deal "Boeing gave ......it would seem that there are bigger things on the horizon and that these A/C will not be permanent "'domestic" A/C........
It wont take long to find out whether this is a viable choice......one things for sure.....there is no comparison in comfort between an 800 v,s an RJ...
CT7
Spot on. The country is now already much better serviced by airlines on a per head of population basis than probably anywhere else in the world.
Don't get me started on the pissing contest that the airport authorities are having by building bigger terminals and longer runways, to service a population a bit smaller than that of Sydney. Where are all the passengers going to come from to use/pay for these largesses.
Spot on. The country is now already much better serviced by airlines on a per head of population basis than probably anywhere else in the world.
Don't get me started on the pissing contest that the airport authorities are having by building bigger terminals and longer runways, to service a population a bit smaller than that of Sydney. Where are all the passengers going to come from to use/pay for these largesses.
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Thanks Pakeha Boy for getting my drift.
That next aircraft type must be the Embraer E-190 and if so then what will be the implications ?
First of all I say that the 737-800 will make huge losses and simply spoil the entry of better suited operators.
Second the Embraers will not lower fare costs. they will not provide airfreight capacity from provincial New Zealand towns who are begging for more air freight capacity. It may in the short term, but then P/Blue will switch to E-190s and the capacity will all vanish along with destruction of the previous Air NZ airfreight capacity.
It's like introducing a cancer to some smaller NZ centres.
Makes me wonder as to the "price or deal "Boeing gave ......it would seem that there are bigger things on the horizon and that these A/C will not be permanent "'domestic" A/C........
First of all I say that the 737-800 will make huge losses and simply spoil the entry of better suited operators.
Second the Embraers will not lower fare costs. they will not provide airfreight capacity from provincial New Zealand towns who are begging for more air freight capacity. It may in the short term, but then P/Blue will switch to E-190s and the capacity will all vanish along with destruction of the previous Air NZ airfreight capacity.
It's like introducing a cancer to some smaller NZ centres.
New Zealand towns who are begging for more air freight capacity.
I don't think Pacific Blue have any immediate plans to operate anywhere but AKL WLG CHC ZQN with 737s much like Qantas.
BTW - who are these 'better suited operators' ?
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Hmm... what it feels like is begging to happen is to wait for all these jets to buzz around domestically, then bring in a Q400 or 5, offer a similar service to a jet on similar routes.. then eat these jets for breakfast...
All the public sees these days is $$$.... and how much they can save...
mwuahhahahaahh
All the public sees these days is $$$.... and how much they can save...
mwuahhahahaahh