Caravan V's Chieftain
Bugsmasherdriverandjediknite
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Bai, mi go long hap na kisim sampla samting.
Posts: 2,849
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I flew the PAC 750XL and its a great ship, can carry a whooooole lot of weight and gets on and off pretty damn short. great cargo ship, but with the pax side of things, its pretty spartan and I don't think passenger will be that thrilled with it. sort of like deck chairs in the back of a landcruiser.
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: oz
Posts: 127
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
LHRT, Maybe you had the wrong people maintaining your pa31's. Ours fly 600 hrs a year each average and we don't have any major reliability problems. We don't use the cheapest maintenance provider on the airport though, either. They aren't that expensive to maintain, I gave the figures ours cost in my previous post. That's based on 15 years worth of operating. Even leaves a little in the kitty to do some upgrading of the avionics, which we are undertaking.
Bizzy, with regard to your nomad questions, yes there are, if you look under the rocks, and NO YOU DON'T WANT TO!!!!
Bizzy, with regard to your nomad questions, yes there are, if you look under the rocks, and NO YOU DON'T WANT TO!!!!
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Turkmenistan
Posts: 70
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hmmm, full reverse in flight in the cresco...i dont think i'd be keen. Had the cresco go past beta once when the prop wasnt rigged right and it shook like a mo-fo. Had the power lever brought back forward in no time!!
The XL is a lot lighter in the controls than the Cresco, you need to be a wrestler to do aileron turns
The XL is a lot lighter in the controls than the Cresco, you need to be a wrestler to do aileron turns
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Perth
Posts: 841
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Full Reverse in flight is both safe and legal last time i looked in the flight manual, for the Cresco (Although i'd recommend you be shown how to do it, you could overspeed the gear box with the incorrect technique ).
Did some parachuting in Cairns in a Cresco a few years ago, reverse is a very handy tool for descent when operation at the DZ ( i.e. an airport ), 7000 plus ROD at 120-130 KIAS.
Infact, with tandems under a drogue, you could descend faster than them.
Aircraft such as the Porter and C208 have previously been allowed to operate like this, unfortunately a few in-experienced pilots did it too close to the ground and killed themselves, therefore the relevant flight manuals were changed.
Did some parachuting in Cairns in a Cresco a few years ago, reverse is a very handy tool for descent when operation at the DZ ( i.e. an airport ), 7000 plus ROD at 120-130 KIAS.
Infact, with tandems under a drogue, you could descend faster than them.
Aircraft such as the Porter and C208 have previously been allowed to operate like this, unfortunately a few in-experienced pilots did it too close to the ground and killed themselves, therefore the relevant flight manuals were changed.
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: here
Posts: 133
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From one of the C208 test pilots.....
I have flown the C208 in beta. At altitude, if you go into beta, the tail down force is killed and the aircraft pitches inverted. Unless you are in the middle of a flare in ground effect when you do this, the nose gear is going to hit the ground hard and you are going to break the airplane.
If you let the airplane stabilized inverted in full reverse, at altitude, with the fuel topping governer controlling the engine, you will be descending in excess of 8000 fpm. We had a spin chute installed, we were wearing parachutes, and we had a door jetteson mod installed in the cockpit.
As soon as beta was removed and the tail started generating down force again, we were able to recover from the resulting dive from inverted position. (This is my reason for doubting any claims of positive tail force on the aircraft. We did this at forward, and aft cg.)
I have flown the C208 in beta. At altitude, if you go into beta, the tail down force is killed and the aircraft pitches inverted. Unless you are in the middle of a flare in ground effect when you do this, the nose gear is going to hit the ground hard and you are going to break the airplane.
If you let the airplane stabilized inverted in full reverse, at altitude, with the fuel topping governer controlling the engine, you will be descending in excess of 8000 fpm. We had a spin chute installed, we were wearing parachutes, and we had a door jetteson mod installed in the cockpit.
As soon as beta was removed and the tail started generating down force again, we were able to recover from the resulting dive from inverted position. (This is my reason for doubting any claims of positive tail force on the aircraft. We did this at forward, and aft cg.)
Exactly why it was always stressed to me to never put the caravan into beta in flight, no matter what people said. Glad ive never been tempted reading that. Sounds very nasty.
From one of the C208 test pilots.....
I have flown the C208 in beta. At altitude, if you go into beta, the tail down force is killed and the aircraft pitches inverted. Unless you are in the middle of a flare in ground effect when you do this, the nose gear is going to hit the ground hard and you are going to break the airplane.
If you let the airplane stabilized inverted in full reverse, at altitude, with the fuel topping governer controlling the engine, you will be descending in excess of 8000 fpm. We had a spin chute installed, we were wearing parachutes, and we had a door jetteson mod installed in the cockpit.
As soon as beta was removed and the tail started generating down force again, we were able to recover from the resulting dive from inverted position. (This is my reason for doubting any claims of positive tail force on the aircraft. We did this at forward, and aft cg.)
I have flown the C208 in beta. At altitude, if you go into beta, the tail down force is killed and the aircraft pitches inverted. Unless you are in the middle of a flare in ground effect when you do this, the nose gear is going to hit the ground hard and you are going to break the airplane.
If you let the airplane stabilized inverted in full reverse, at altitude, with the fuel topping governer controlling the engine, you will be descending in excess of 8000 fpm. We had a spin chute installed, we were wearing parachutes, and we had a door jetteson mod installed in the cockpit.
As soon as beta was removed and the tail started generating down force again, we were able to recover from the resulting dive from inverted position. (This is my reason for doubting any claims of positive tail force on the aircraft. We did this at forward, and aft cg.)
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Perth
Posts: 841
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Here is the full post ( Frogo a test pilot ? ):
http://www.caravanpilots.com/phpBB3/...&view=previous
It must be pointed out that the use of Beta and Reverse in a C208 is not an airframe or engine limitation. ( i did my C208 at Flightsafety at Wichita and asked this and many other scary questions ).
Re-read the blurb, especially with regards to "inverted", if the aircraft was physically inverted, it is because the pilot washed off too much airspeed.
With regards to the "reversal" of the TDF, that is bollocks, when the aircraft goes into beta or reverse, the airflow over the tail will only "reverse flow" at an airspeed significantly below Vs ( as shown on the IAS ).
What will happen is much the same as at stall, due to the significantly distrurbed/low velocity airflow over the tail the TDF will decrease and the aircraft will pitch down, remember the arm between lift and gravity ( in the stall the aircraft should pitch down gently and accelerate out of the stall).
When the power lever is in the rear part of the quadrant,
1) the beta light is rigged on a microswitch, which does not really indicate anything exactly other than the microswitch is working ( i have not flown a pefectly rigged PT6 yet ).
2) Beta ( blade angle ) will be felt, like an airbrake activating.
3) the prop will not go into reverse untill there is an underspeed condition within the engine, for eg prop is set to 1900 rpm and the actual speed drops to 1899 rpm or less, then the PPC mode is available, you will then be physically manipulating the pitch of the blade ( thats what that funny slip ring and carbon block at the front of the engine is for ), note the "do not select reverse with the engine shut down" sticker on the power lever quadrant.
http://www.caravanpilots.com/phpBB3/...&view=previous
It must be pointed out that the use of Beta and Reverse in a C208 is not an airframe or engine limitation. ( i did my C208 at Flightsafety at Wichita and asked this and many other scary questions ).
Re-read the blurb, especially with regards to "inverted", if the aircraft was physically inverted, it is because the pilot washed off too much airspeed.
With regards to the "reversal" of the TDF, that is bollocks, when the aircraft goes into beta or reverse, the airflow over the tail will only "reverse flow" at an airspeed significantly below Vs ( as shown on the IAS ).
What will happen is much the same as at stall, due to the significantly distrurbed/low velocity airflow over the tail the TDF will decrease and the aircraft will pitch down, remember the arm between lift and gravity ( in the stall the aircraft should pitch down gently and accelerate out of the stall).
When the power lever is in the rear part of the quadrant,
1) the beta light is rigged on a microswitch, which does not really indicate anything exactly other than the microswitch is working ( i have not flown a pefectly rigged PT6 yet ).
2) Beta ( blade angle ) will be felt, like an airbrake activating.
3) the prop will not go into reverse untill there is an underspeed condition within the engine, for eg prop is set to 1900 rpm and the actual speed drops to 1899 rpm or less, then the PPC mode is available, you will then be physically manipulating the pitch of the blade ( thats what that funny slip ring and carbon block at the front of the engine is for ), note the "do not select reverse with the engine shut down" sticker on the power lever quadrant.
Last edited by Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower; 15th Aug 2007 at 08:01.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: in the desert
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Stuck Beta Valve
G,day all,
I am a first time poster but a long time reader.
For anyone tempted to try beta close to the ground (ie way too hot on approach) there has been cases in the past where the beta valve had corrosion in it and when pulled into beta has actually stuck. As a more desirable airspeed is reached and power added the result is more reverse. Unfortunately the instinctive reaction is more power which gets vey untidy very quickly and will most likely end with bent metal. Feathering the prop is the only quick fix.
pw1340
I am a first time poster but a long time reader.
For anyone tempted to try beta close to the ground (ie way too hot on approach) there has been cases in the past where the beta valve had corrosion in it and when pulled into beta has actually stuck. As a more desirable airspeed is reached and power added the result is more reverse. Unfortunately the instinctive reaction is more power which gets vey untidy very quickly and will most likely end with bent metal. Feathering the prop is the only quick fix.
pw1340
You cant really compare a Chieftain that was designed in the 60's and now are 30 year old airframes with a caravan that was designed 30 years later. A lot of adbances in aerodynamics, airframes and powerplants has happened since the Chieftain was designed.
What WOULD be interesting is a new design 10/12 seat piston twin to replace the Chieftain, using up to date materials.
From reading, I believe that a turbine engine costs about 3 times per hp to buy and operate than a piston engine, what is the cost of a new PT-6? How much is an overhaul?
A friend of mine in the US who is an aeronautical engineer and designes and has built 6 of his own desgnes using some wizz bang CAD programms came up with a design arond 2 of Theilerts V8 diesels. 10 seats, a fuselage 12 inches wider than a chieftain. preliminary calulations shows it does 230 kts at 10,000 ft, will carry 1200 kgs 1000nm at 230 kts and use about half the fuel (Jet A) than the 208.
Hes usually on the money when he builds his designes so you can bet the real thing would perform to his calcs. he also recons a price of 1.8 Mil USD would be in the ball park.
How much is a new 208?
What WOULD be interesting is a new design 10/12 seat piston twin to replace the Chieftain, using up to date materials.
From reading, I believe that a turbine engine costs about 3 times per hp to buy and operate than a piston engine, what is the cost of a new PT-6? How much is an overhaul?
A friend of mine in the US who is an aeronautical engineer and designes and has built 6 of his own desgnes using some wizz bang CAD programms came up with a design arond 2 of Theilerts V8 diesels. 10 seats, a fuselage 12 inches wider than a chieftain. preliminary calulations shows it does 230 kts at 10,000 ft, will carry 1200 kgs 1000nm at 230 kts and use about half the fuel (Jet A) than the 208.
Hes usually on the money when he builds his designes so you can bet the real thing would perform to his calcs. he also recons a price of 1.8 Mil USD would be in the ball park.
How much is a new 208?
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Melbourne Australia
Posts: 110
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
re Nomad N22C
there is "one" still flying on the Australian register VH-ATO (airframe 108)
she's being used for camera work by Don Wells (Airlines Tasmania) these days after being sold by Commando Skydivers
great bus to drive, had a lot of enjoyable flying in her
she's being used for camera work by Don Wells (Airlines Tasmania) these days after being sold by Commando Skydivers
great bus to drive, had a lot of enjoyable flying in her
