Airmanship at Ardmore.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Live in Taupiri, Waikato, work in the big smoke, New Zealand
Posts: 545
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
haughtney1 - brilliant story...sorta makes a busy day in the tower worthwhile!!
Knowing the environment (busy tower) well, the odd bit of light relief certainly can pick up the spirits...but only know and then...I don't want to be seen as encouraging endless mindless babble on the RT...why only yesterday morning an exchange with an EAG pilot kept me chortling to myself for at least half an hour...but that's a whole other thread!!!
Knowing the environment (busy tower) well, the odd bit of light relief certainly can pick up the spirits...but only know and then...I don't want to be seen as encouraging endless mindless babble on the RT...why only yesterday morning an exchange with an EAG pilot kept me chortling to myself for at least half an hour...but that's a whole other thread!!!
Radio Calls - position reports
It is my experience that a lot of younger/newer pilots talk too much on the radio. More on that shortly
The original post was about aircraft operating near certain airfields and not making appropriate radio calls while carrying out PFL's. By nature the location of the said airfields the probability is that these aircraft were from Ardmore, however I suspect this sort of thing could happen anywhere.
To me this indicates a lack of knowledge about the position of the said fields or a lack of knowledge about the correct frequency that should be used when operating around said field or an arrogance that it doesn't matter as there is normally no one else using the field.
I suspect use of the incorrect frequency.
Where does the lack of knowledge come from, it comes from the instructors and the organisations they work for. If the instructors showed a good example when flying with their students and briefed the students thoroughly before a solo exercise the incidence of the these incursions would decrease dramatically.
I must admit that I would be hard pressed to know where Kelly field is so perhaps in this case a call to the operators at Ardmore with the details might help them and their instructors to better brief their students.
Now to radio calls and position reports.
As I mentioned on another thread. How often have you heard a position report to XYZ traffic when the said aircraft is nowhere near the traffic circuit and it's tracking will never take it anywhere close to that airfield. It is a total waste of breathe and clutters up the frequency.
I get the feeling that some pilots think that by talking on the radio it absolves them from looking out the window and other pilots will keep out of their way. VFR flying is see and be seen, you shouldn't be using the radio for your look out.
As for using the big green shed as a reporting point. It's a bit like winking at the good looking girl in the dark. If I don't know where said shed is that report is totally useless to me. It is far better to give your position relative to a point that any passing pilot can expect to know or at least be able to find on his/her charts.
It doesn't matter if the pilot says 5 miles north instead of 3 miles north of Mercer at least you know approximately where they are relative to you instead of not knowing at all when a point like the big green shed is used. Lets face it even if you were exactly over head the the green shed when you made your report, within a minute you are going to be about 2 miles away from it.
Haughtney,
I can think of only one instructor who might make that depature call. First name begins with the seventh letter of the alphabet.
It is my experience that a lot of younger/newer pilots talk too much on the radio. More on that shortly
The original post was about aircraft operating near certain airfields and not making appropriate radio calls while carrying out PFL's. By nature the location of the said airfields the probability is that these aircraft were from Ardmore, however I suspect this sort of thing could happen anywhere.
To me this indicates a lack of knowledge about the position of the said fields or a lack of knowledge about the correct frequency that should be used when operating around said field or an arrogance that it doesn't matter as there is normally no one else using the field.
I suspect use of the incorrect frequency.
Where does the lack of knowledge come from, it comes from the instructors and the organisations they work for. If the instructors showed a good example when flying with their students and briefed the students thoroughly before a solo exercise the incidence of the these incursions would decrease dramatically.
I must admit that I would be hard pressed to know where Kelly field is so perhaps in this case a call to the operators at Ardmore with the details might help them and their instructors to better brief their students.
Now to radio calls and position reports.
As I mentioned on another thread. How often have you heard a position report to XYZ traffic when the said aircraft is nowhere near the traffic circuit and it's tracking will never take it anywhere close to that airfield. It is a total waste of breathe and clutters up the frequency.
I get the feeling that some pilots think that by talking on the radio it absolves them from looking out the window and other pilots will keep out of their way. VFR flying is see and be seen, you shouldn't be using the radio for your look out.
As for using the big green shed as a reporting point. It's a bit like winking at the good looking girl in the dark. If I don't know where said shed is that report is totally useless to me. It is far better to give your position relative to a point that any passing pilot can expect to know or at least be able to find on his/her charts.
It doesn't matter if the pilot says 5 miles north instead of 3 miles north of Mercer at least you know approximately where they are relative to you instead of not knowing at all when a point like the big green shed is used. Lets face it even if you were exactly over head the the green shed when you made your report, within a minute you are going to be about 2 miles away from it.
Haughtney,
I can think of only one instructor who might make that depature call. First name begins with the seventh letter of the alphabet.
Last edited by 27/09; 29th Jul 2007 at 22:15.
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Australia
Age: 52
Posts: 698
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I get the feeling that some pilots think that by talking on the radio it absolves them from looking out the window and other pilots will keep out of their way. VFR flying is see and be seen, you shouldn't be using the radio for your look out.
i have to disagree with this just slightly...I was one of those student who "made unecessary radio calls", however more as a warning to other pilots than anything else.
For eg... first time doing solo wing drop stalls - I hardly knew myself where the bloody aircraft was gonna end up, so I felt it only fair to warn all and sundry in the area. I mean - I may be at 3,000 feet above Te Horo now, but in 90 seconds i could end up at Otaki at 1,500 feet!
(let me just add here, this is clearly an exaggeration of my inept skils but I think you get the point!)
So, I agree that yes, while the radio is busy, chit chat and calls should be kept to a minimum; but when it's not busy, and there are ****loads of new students around, I don't think it can hurt.
Knowledge is power
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Australia
Age: 52
Posts: 698
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What happened to the lookout part of your HASELL checks. Lookout - clear of airfields, clear of traffic above and below.
But then along come people who don't believe in unnecessary radio calls, haven't called for 10 minutes, who perhaps got their position slightly wrong at the last call, travelling faster than what they have indicated, maybe popping out from behind Kapiti Island... for example, or perhaps a valley that is frequented by scenic flight goers...
But I supposed if we discounted all this, kept quiet and just did our HASELL checks there'd never be any near misses.
Tell that to Massey Aviation.
kiwi chick,
When was it ever a requirement to give a position report every 10 minutes. That was precisely part of the point of my post. Unless you are operating inside an MBZ there are no prescribed time frames to make position reports. Yet it seems that some pilots see the need to continually broadcast their position to all and sundry at very regular intervals no matter where they are.
Part of the lookout when carrying out stalling or aeros is to make sure that you are clear of such areas like you mention, i.e a scenic flight path or aircraft popping out from behind Kapiti as you so eloquently put it.
As for the very unfortunate Massey accident. We will probably never know the full story. A radio call may have helped, however I suspect that both pilots were aware of each others presence in that area. A vigilant lookout from both parties would certainly have helped avoid this accident.
When was it ever a requirement to give a position report every 10 minutes. That was precisely part of the point of my post. Unless you are operating inside an MBZ there are no prescribed time frames to make position reports. Yet it seems that some pilots see the need to continually broadcast their position to all and sundry at very regular intervals no matter where they are.
Part of the lookout when carrying out stalling or aeros is to make sure that you are clear of such areas like you mention, i.e a scenic flight path or aircraft popping out from behind Kapiti as you so eloquently put it.
As for the very unfortunate Massey accident. We will probably never know the full story. A radio call may have helped, however I suspect that both pilots were aware of each others presence in that area. A vigilant lookout from both parties would certainly have helped avoid this accident.
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Australia
Age: 52
Posts: 698
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi there
I never intmated that it WAS a requirement to broadcast every ten minutes - which is entirely the basis of my point.
How far, up, down, to the side, can an aircraft get in ten minutes??? Especially one with brand spanking new students in it???
I am NOT advocating replacing lookouts with radio calls - I am merely saying that I certainly don't think there is any harm in making them.
Graeme Leach - you know him? could validate a story of my C-Cat flight test where a lookout was done before entering my "lesson" of fully developed stalls - a lookout done by two fairly intelligent peoples with somewhat satisfactory vision - which confirmed one aircraft over Kapiti Island doing aeros (we were over the coastline at 3,000) - fairly good separation i would have thought.
Upon recovering from the stall we discovered "said" aircraft flying overhead us from left to right at a distance that entailed a change of underwear. Had he made a call to say "yeah, i'm finished doin aeros and heading back to the coast, right towards that other plane" then perhaps we would have changed out position slightly.
And, interestingly, it IS a MBZ... didn't appear to make much difference. So yes whilst I am more than confident in my own skills to make a good lookout, i say again that there are some idiots out there that just can't be taken for granted.
Go on... give it to me then.
I never intmated that it WAS a requirement to broadcast every ten minutes - which is entirely the basis of my point.
How far, up, down, to the side, can an aircraft get in ten minutes??? Especially one with brand spanking new students in it???
I am NOT advocating replacing lookouts with radio calls - I am merely saying that I certainly don't think there is any harm in making them.
Graeme Leach - you know him? could validate a story of my C-Cat flight test where a lookout was done before entering my "lesson" of fully developed stalls - a lookout done by two fairly intelligent peoples with somewhat satisfactory vision - which confirmed one aircraft over Kapiti Island doing aeros (we were over the coastline at 3,000) - fairly good separation i would have thought.
Upon recovering from the stall we discovered "said" aircraft flying overhead us from left to right at a distance that entailed a change of underwear. Had he made a call to say "yeah, i'm finished doin aeros and heading back to the coast, right towards that other plane" then perhaps we would have changed out position slightly.
And, interestingly, it IS a MBZ... didn't appear to make much difference. So yes whilst I am more than confident in my own skills to make a good lookout, i say again that there are some idiots out there that just can't be taken for granted.
Go on... give it to me then.
Go on... give it to me then.
After reading your last post I think we are talking about two different things. The example you give that happened during your flight test is a perfect example of when radio calls should be made when operating in an MBZ. The offender should have had their backside well and truely kicked. If GL knew who it was I'm sure he did just that.
I'll give you an example of what I am talking about and then tell me what you think. "Thames traffic XYZ overhead Paeroa tracking towards Matamata... blah blah blah". Paeroa is 15 miles from Thames the aircraft isn't anywhere near and hasn't been anywhere near and isn't going anywhere near the Thames circuit. Is that an appropriate use of the radio?
(edited to better illustrate the sort of radio call I was referring to)
Last edited by 27/09; 30th Jul 2007 at 02:48.
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Auckland
Posts: 138
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hey, you are BOTH right...
Nothing beats a good look out however it's not perfect, as I found out last week... I'm x-Mil so my head and eyes NEVER stop moving however, my B Cat student and I both missed a potential conflict with an aircraft joining overhead as we were turning x wind, so lookout is not infallible...
27/09 As for the radio call... overhead is no good on it's own, however overhead ABC tracking for DEF is useful. So yes radio calls are a very useful tool helping other pilots develop good S/A.
And Kiwi Chick, I'd be more than happy to help you confidently operate at Ardmore should you wish to.
Cheers
Wombat
Nothing beats a good look out however it's not perfect, as I found out last week... I'm x-Mil so my head and eyes NEVER stop moving however, my B Cat student and I both missed a potential conflict with an aircraft joining overhead as we were turning x wind, so lookout is not infallible...
27/09 As for the radio call... overhead is no good on it's own, however overhead ABC tracking for DEF is useful. So yes radio calls are a very useful tool helping other pilots develop good S/A.
And Kiwi Chick, I'd be more than happy to help you confidently operate at Ardmore should you wish to.
Cheers
Wombat
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Australia
Age: 52
Posts: 698
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wombat - thank you, might have to take you up on that - I got my Vol 4 out last night and saw there's about 135 pages dedicated to AR alone... lol! 
27/09 - I was referring to the lashing I thought you were going to give me in reply to my post 
And yes I agree with the comment you were making in part. It would have been appropriate had they said "ABC overhead Paeroa TRACKING to Thames" if they were indeed on their way... to warn everyone perhaps - but not if they were nowhere near...
Unless of course DEF was just airborne Thames on THEIR way to Paeroa...
Sorry you lost me there.
And yes I agree with the comment you were making in part. It would have been appropriate had they said "ABC overhead Paeroa TRACKING to Thames" if they were indeed on their way... to warn everyone perhaps - but not if they were nowhere near...
Unless of course DEF was just airborne Thames on THEIR way to Paeroa...
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Hamiltron, NZ
Posts: 27
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And yes I agree with the comment you were making in part. It would have been appropriate had they said "ABC overhead Paeroa TRACKING to Thames" if they were indeed on their way... to warn everyone perhaps - but not if they were nowhere near...
Unless of course DEF was just airborne Thames on THEIR way to Paeroa...
Unless of course DEF was just airborne Thames on THEIR way to Paeroa...
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Australia
Age: 52
Posts: 698
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm with you there Hard Yakka!
27/09 I just thought of another example where I "clutter up the frequency" and I'm gonna share it with you - and you can tell me I'm wrong!
I fly in Dannevirke quite a bit, unattended freq 119.1. Sometimes I heard traffic leaving Palmy for a xc and I address my calls to "Dannevirke AND Manawatu traffic".
I base this decision on information I have gleaned (and I mean no disrespect by any of the following)
solo student - I have no idea of their hours or experience but if they're out on their first "solo cross country" then F
K all. Can read a map but not recognise half the reporting points - if they aren't entirely sure where they are, then how the hell am I supposed to know? English as a second language - again if I can't understand them very well (again I mean no disrespect, but it HAPPENS) then how can I be sure where they are?
By making a radio call to them ON THEIR WAY TOWARDS ME I am just trying to increase my chances of not being surprised if - god forbid - my lookout is not 100%.
Does that make any sense?
27/09 I just thought of another example where I "clutter up the frequency" and I'm gonna share it with you - and you can tell me I'm wrong!
I fly in Dannevirke quite a bit, unattended freq 119.1. Sometimes I heard traffic leaving Palmy for a xc and I address my calls to "Dannevirke AND Manawatu traffic".
I base this decision on information I have gleaned (and I mean no disrespect by any of the following)
solo student - I have no idea of their hours or experience but if they're out on their first "solo cross country" then F
K all. Can read a map but not recognise half the reporting points - if they aren't entirely sure where they are, then how the hell am I supposed to know? English as a second language - again if I can't understand them very well (again I mean no disrespect, but it HAPPENS) then how can I be sure where they are?By making a radio call to them ON THEIR WAY TOWARDS ME I am just trying to increase my chances of not being surprised if - god forbid - my lookout is not 100%.
Does that make any sense?
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: NZ
Age: 44
Posts: 53
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I hav'nt been thrashing around the Pokeno paddocks for eons and until I saw the map posted here had never heard of kelly field.
All I can say is that rightly or wrongly if you establish an airfield in the middle of one of the busiest training areas in the country and fill it with a/c being flown by guys/girls with about 20hrs total time you are going to get some problems. WHAT DO YOU EXPECT??!!
Casting my mind back to my own learning to fly and observing others I would be cautious about stating a lack of airmanship as the problem..... It would be better to be more specific and say a lack of situational awareness which we were all once guily of. We have all experienced a stage of our student days were sheer luck played a part in our outcome. As we matured and became more experienced our S/A improved and it would be nice to see some open mindedness when seeing someone whose still at the stages of keeping the a/c upright doing something they really shouldnt ie missing radio calls etc.
The AR circut is no different, alot of out of towners make an arse of themselves but everyone else there knows the feeling and a little understanding goes along way. Its is a busy student airfield that is uncontrolled so there will always be cock-ups.... Doesnt matter if you uproot the enitre airport/system/people to the Canterbury plains or the the Wiarapa etc it will be the same story.....unfortuante but TRUE.
There are good and bad in all circles of aviation but some of the most piss poor airmanship I have ever seen is at NZQN..... Anyone who has mistakenly taken a 'local operators park' will know what I mean - And that was on the part of one of the old boys there.
(Nothing mentioned in the VFG about reserved a/c parks?)
All I can say is that rightly or wrongly if you establish an airfield in the middle of one of the busiest training areas in the country and fill it with a/c being flown by guys/girls with about 20hrs total time you are going to get some problems. WHAT DO YOU EXPECT??!!
Casting my mind back to my own learning to fly and observing others I would be cautious about stating a lack of airmanship as the problem..... It would be better to be more specific and say a lack of situational awareness which we were all once guily of. We have all experienced a stage of our student days were sheer luck played a part in our outcome. As we matured and became more experienced our S/A improved and it would be nice to see some open mindedness when seeing someone whose still at the stages of keeping the a/c upright doing something they really shouldnt ie missing radio calls etc.
The AR circut is no different, alot of out of towners make an arse of themselves but everyone else there knows the feeling and a little understanding goes along way. Its is a busy student airfield that is uncontrolled so there will always be cock-ups.... Doesnt matter if you uproot the enitre airport/system/people to the Canterbury plains or the the Wiarapa etc it will be the same story.....unfortuante but TRUE.
There are good and bad in all circles of aviation but some of the most piss poor airmanship I have ever seen is at NZQN..... Anyone who has mistakenly taken a 'local operators park' will know what I mean - And that was on the part of one of the old boys there.
(Nothing mentioned in the VFG about reserved a/c parks?)
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Wherever I Lay my Hat...
Posts: 295
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by muttly's pigeon
Anyone who has mistakenly taken a 'local operators park' will know what I mean - And that was on the part of one of the old boys there.
All that needs be done is ask (That again) -there's plenty of people on the airport that will be only too happy to help if asked! If you are in the 'wrong' spot, they'll at the very least direct you to where you can ask permission to use an existing tie-down or place your own pickets.
Kiwi Chick
None what so ever.
Dannevirke airfield and the Manawatu CFZ are on different frequencies, so making a
call makes no sense.
If a student can read a map they should be able to recognise any relevant reporting points as well. Besides solo cross countrys should be chosen carefully to ensure that student can handle that route. If this is not the case their instuctor is failing them by letting them loose.
If these students are as geographically challenged as you suggest they might be, telling them where you are is of no use what so ever. If the don't know where they are how the hell are they going to know where they are relative to you?
As for the English as a second language issue, these students probably have as much trouble understanding you as you do them, so all you end up doing by babbling at them is to confuse them.
kiwiblue
Spot On. What ever happened to that old fashioned way where a visiting pilot who was unfamiliar with the local field went and asked if it was OK to park where he/she was for a while or tie down for the night?
Does that make any sense?
Dannevirke airfield and the Manawatu CFZ are on different frequencies, so making a
"Dannevirke AND Manawatu traffic".
If a student can read a map they should be able to recognise any relevant reporting points as well. Besides solo cross countrys should be chosen carefully to ensure that student can handle that route. If this is not the case their instuctor is failing them by letting them loose.
If these students are as geographically challenged as you suggest they might be, telling them where you are is of no use what so ever. If the don't know where they are how the hell are they going to know where they are relative to you?
As for the English as a second language issue, these students probably have as much trouble understanding you as you do them, so all you end up doing by babbling at them is to confuse them.
kiwiblue
Spot On. What ever happened to that old fashioned way where a visiting pilot who was unfamiliar with the local field went and asked if it was OK to park where he/she was for a while or tie down for the night?
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Wherever I Lay my Hat...
Posts: 295
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by 27/09
What ever happened to that old fashioned way where a visiting pilot who was unfamiliar with the local field went and asked if it was OK to park where he/she was for a while or tie down for the night?
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am relatively new to aviation and learning to fly at Ardmore.
I have read the comments with some interest and would like to add my two cents worth.
I have asked a lot of my fellow students and some of the instructors - none have ever seen or heard an aircraft using Kelly Field.From what I can make out it is hardly ever used so yes - aircraft practicing forced landings may well use that bit of airspace without thought.
It was interesting to read about poor airmanship - I didn't realise that students in the past never made mistakes. Or is it simply that as students of today move on they will be replaced by new stduents who will no doubt make the same mistakes all over again.
Re - the Green Shed - yes - there is also Quarry Lake - Hotel De Vine - the Cable Way etc etc. While doing cross countries I have often been confused when Air Traffic Control directs me to a position that is not on the map but a positon that is known to local operators only.
Joining straight in - I asked an Instructor - the AIP and Ardmore local proceedures manual clearly states that aircraft established in the circuit have right of way over aircraft joining straight in. Aircraft joining straight in are urged to go for the grass or join overhead.
I asked why?
Answer:- Aircraft in the circuit are frequently being flown by students who might be on their first solo or students who are practicing. Lookout is usually not as good as it could be. The rule is also designed to keep the circuit tight - how often have you been annoyed by someone who has extended down to Clevedon to fit in behind an aircraft joining straight in.
On several occaisons I have extended to allow twins in etc - I think the system works pretty well.
The old saying - "you can't please all of the people all of the time"
If you see someone doing something out of order in the training area - they be new and inexperienced - cut some slack - give them a call or ring the school concerned.
I have read the comments with some interest and would like to add my two cents worth.
I have asked a lot of my fellow students and some of the instructors - none have ever seen or heard an aircraft using Kelly Field.From what I can make out it is hardly ever used so yes - aircraft practicing forced landings may well use that bit of airspace without thought.
It was interesting to read about poor airmanship - I didn't realise that students in the past never made mistakes. Or is it simply that as students of today move on they will be replaced by new stduents who will no doubt make the same mistakes all over again.
Re - the Green Shed - yes - there is also Quarry Lake - Hotel De Vine - the Cable Way etc etc. While doing cross countries I have often been confused when Air Traffic Control directs me to a position that is not on the map but a positon that is known to local operators only.
Joining straight in - I asked an Instructor - the AIP and Ardmore local proceedures manual clearly states that aircraft established in the circuit have right of way over aircraft joining straight in. Aircraft joining straight in are urged to go for the grass or join overhead.
I asked why?
Answer:- Aircraft in the circuit are frequently being flown by students who might be on their first solo or students who are practicing. Lookout is usually not as good as it could be. The rule is also designed to keep the circuit tight - how often have you been annoyed by someone who has extended down to Clevedon to fit in behind an aircraft joining straight in.
On several occaisons I have extended to allow twins in etc - I think the system works pretty well.
The old saying - "you can't please all of the people all of the time"
If you see someone doing something out of order in the training area - they be new and inexperienced - cut some slack - give them a call or ring the school concerned.
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Australia
Age: 52
Posts: 698
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dannevirke airfield and the Manawatu CFZ are on different frequencies, so making a
27/09 - this was in the days before CFZ and it was once airborne clear of the zone and tower had told them to switch to 119.1.
I would have to be pretty unintelligent to broadcast to pilots who weren't even on my frequency, wouldn't I?!
Then again [tongue in cheek], I AM just a girl....
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: nz
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just a thought, I trained at AR in the early 90's.
we had a control tower and all was rosey.
However as a young aviator in the prime of my youth one reason we use to rush around the circuit and oush and barge others out of the way was not be "jumped" on by the old queen of the skys saddlebags.
Does Baron Von Saddler still lurk in the deep dark cracks of a certain school at AR looking to "help" any poor young fella.
We all wondered if he carried a spare dipstick in his trousers or was he just happy to "help".
Saddle bags, if you are reading this you said i would never get anywhere..........
Whos driving a big 777 now wazza
Love from the class bafoon of 92..............
P.s Long live hostee bringing the warm cuppas and the paper!
we had a control tower and all was rosey
.However as a young aviator in the prime of my youth one reason we use to rush around the circuit and oush and barge others out of the way was not be "jumped" on by the old queen of the skys saddlebags.
Does Baron Von Saddler still lurk in the deep dark cracks of a certain school at AR looking to "help" any poor young fella.
We all wondered if he carried a spare dipstick in his trousers or was he just happy to "help".
Saddle bags, if you are reading this you said i would never get anywhere..........
Whos driving a big 777 now wazza
Love from the class bafoon of 92..............
P.s Long live hostee bringing the warm cuppas and the paper!
